[18:03 UTC] *** Logging started. ***
[11:03 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Kayaker.
[11:04 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: evening guys
[11:05 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: I do my normal backups to a server in the barn across the street over a LAN cable.
[11:05 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:05 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: But a forest fire could take out my house and the barn....
[11:05 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, stay away from certain areas of California. :)
[11:05 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: So periodically I back up to a drive that lives in a safety deposit box.
[11:05 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: backupbarn.com
[11:05 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:06 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: Did that last night, and this morning I'm hot swapping SATA drives on my live desktop.
[11:06 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: Linux handles that well.
[11:06 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Jamie
[11:07 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Jamie
[11:07 AM PT] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi everybody
[11:07 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:07 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, Are you running with drives in a RAID configuration in the desktop?
[11:08 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: No
[11:08 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: jagga i can't read all that article in detail
[11:08 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I was wondering about you hot swapping them.
[11:09 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: ok Ubit
[11:09 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: first question of spliting robust, is .. do you really need to do that?
[11:09 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: What article are we talking about?
[11:09 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: to bring rest of you up to speed on what Ubit and I are talking about...
[11:10 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't know. It wasn't mentioned after I arrived.
[11:10 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: [10:54] Jagga Meredith: Aviworlds is about to go through the process of moving assets to a linux server. Josh is going to hire some guys in Brazil recommended by Alex (yes, THAT Alex). Know anything about them?
[10:54] Jagga Meredith: I'd take a whack at it but I don't have time
[10:58] Jagga Meredith: There's an article here
[10:58] Jagga Meredith: https://blog.sarapayne.co.uk/opensim-separating-robust-instances/
[11:10 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: assets are getting bogged down
[11:10 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: so thinking of moving them to separate server, running linux
[11:11 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: the article apparently shows how, I just don't trust the guys in Brazil given who recommended them, would rather have somebody known
[11:11 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am running with a separate robust for textures
[11:12 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: ok
[11:12 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have done so for many years, and it works fine
[11:12 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: I hear OSGrid has many copies of Robust running.
[11:12 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: kinda where I got the idea from
[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: several do run several instances ues
[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yes
[11:13 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: Discovery Grid has a bunch of Robust running with NGIX to balance the load.
[11:13 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure what it has got to do with 0.9.2 specifically as mentioned in the article
[11:13 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did the same also for 0.8.2 and so on
[11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i made some changes on 0.9,.2
[11:14 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: one service can't be duplicated
[11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: bc it has simple caching
[11:14 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: since I only have one instance of robust for textures I have not bumped into that limitation yet :-)
[11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and as the article tells, i changed the wiki
[11:15 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: ok, we're interested specifically in the section about moving assets to its own server as that seems to be our bottleneck
[11:15 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that kinda stated the usual More instance and threads is better, typical of some opensim... well nm
[11:16 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: current text tries to be more conservative abotu that
[11:16 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have robust on a dedicated machine separate from the db, which is also on a separate machine
[11:16 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: in several cases you will have no gain on running multiple instances of same service, even if possible
[11:16 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: db on separate gear might be an idea and fairly straightforward
[11:16 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have been considering moving robust to th db machine, as they then can communicate over a unix socket and not the genral network
[11:18 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: the split by by several machines is possible, but one needs to be carefull to what services to run where
[11:18 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: some depend heavy on others..
[11:18 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:18 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and ofc split by corresponding mysql backends
[11:18 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: or there is no point
[11:19 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( or other BD ofc )
[11:19 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: ok
[11:19 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: osgrid does run several instances of robust
[11:19 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure about the split by mysql backends
[11:19 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: at a point did run several instances of assets servers
[11:20 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and had sync issues
[11:20 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: aha
[11:20 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: they are now running a diferent server that uses a diferent "db"
[11:21 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: proprietary thing..
[11:21 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: OSGrid
[11:21 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well its how it is :)
[11:21 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: probably some greek thing
[11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: by mysql backedns i mean mysql in diferent machines each with own set of DBs matching the services split
[11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so their load is also divided
[11:22 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: yep
[11:23 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well use of SQL is a pretty bad option on most dbs
[11:23 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: SQL is damm heavy
[11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: some dbs sould be based on faster things like key vlaue things
[11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but its how is it now :)
[11:24 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: most searches in opesim are indexed searches, but it writes a lot and sizing the db for writes are the critical point
[11:24 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: it's nice to be able to hand code a database query (and not have to learn a new language)
[11:25 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: SQL Is a strange language :)
[11:25 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: yup
[11:25 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Not that strange.
[11:25 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: gets the job done
[11:26 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed Andrew
[11:26 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, it does.
[11:26 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well fs assets jumps part of tis use
[11:26 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: It can get wild if you need to do a query with joins across multiple tables.
[11:26 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: yeah
[11:26 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but still uses it for the metadata
[11:27 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: Joins are a way to avoid doing loops and multiple DB searches, so that is a good thing.
[11:27 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: eats CPU
[11:27 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: fs assets is a performance trap
[11:28 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, I'm not saying they aren't useful but the statements can get complicated to write and read.
[11:28 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: performance trap?
[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: bc hte hashes?
[11:29 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because it involves a general file system
[11:29 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is slow
[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well things do endup on the file system sooner or later
[11:30 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: sure sure dbs bring own filesystem
[11:30 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: some dbs...
[11:30 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: db writes to the fs in different ways than writing a gernal file
[11:31 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and as I said, the db needs to be tuned for writes and writes of small records
[11:31 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: now and then i consider making a hibrid assets service
[11:31 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: (remembers when ORACLE wanted its own raw filesystem so it could do its magic without OS interference)
[11:31 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all general fs struggles with that
[11:31 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: one using mysql for both metadata and blob
[11:32 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: some dbs do use own filesystem jagga
[11:32 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: usually a disk controller can only have one write transaction going to multiple disks on the controller at any time
[11:33 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so you need to have multiple controllers to you can issue multiple writes conturrently
[11:33 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: think one grid at least is using own assets service that stores both metadata and blobs on mysql
[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but thats more abotu using same set of tools for backups etc
[11:34 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and if your writes exeeds the ssd write cache, the ssd stalls dramatically and performs worse than spinning rust
[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: amasing the number of ppl that does back fsassets and forgets the files.. only saving the sql
[11:35 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: at least they can see all they have lost...
[11:35 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: heh
[11:35 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, :)
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh and a grid did move the assets service and dbs to other machine
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc forgot the files on the old box :p
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: good the old box was still up and well :)
[11:36 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did they wipe the old box before they realized?
[11:36 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: oops
[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: nahh they where lucky Gavin.Hird
[11:37 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good !
[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but jezz scary
[11:37 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: If they didn't remember about the separate asset blobs they weren't getting backed up at all if there was a backup process in place for the databases.
[11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: backup methods are not that universal
[11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ppl need to use own
[11:38 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: No, they aren't.
[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well its just a detail.. very simple once ppl do remember :)
[11:40 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:40 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we used to say Tivoli Storage Manager is what separates boys from men when it comes to backup
[11:40 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/tsm?topic=SSGSG7/landing/welcome_ssgsg7.html
[11:42 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I ran across something unexpected this past week.
[11:43 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I upgraded a grid to master then got a request to enable HG access to one region but not let HG visitors access some other regions in the grid.
[11:43 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: request from where/whom?
[11:44 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I expected that regions not configured with HG support would not be accessible to an HG grid visitor but it seems that once someone gets in to an HG enabledregion they could go to any other region. Even to regions that were not configured with HG support.
[11:44 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have seen the same
[11:45 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have a welcome region that does not have HG access, but they still can go there
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: HG is not a "enabled" thing
[11:45 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I am not sure if that is a bug or a feature. I wound up creating a new estate and put the HG accessible regions under the new estate and made the other estate accessible by group only.
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: HG was done replacing some methods ( using virtual/overide)
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: a region does not even have a clear way to know if it does suport HG
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that was just never considered, i guess
[11:46 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: HG is an "enabled" thing because you need to use enable/configure it in Robust.ini and there are configuration settings for HG support in the ini files of the regions.
[11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: a grid was jsut assumed to be HG or not, or all HG
[11:47 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did you configure it in GridCommon.ini for the simulator?
[11:47 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have an entry like this:
[11:47 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: [AuthorizationService]
; If you have regions with access restrictions
; specify them here using the convention
; Region_ =
; Valid flags are:
; DisallowForeigners -- HG visitors not allowed
; DisallowResidents -- only Admins and Managers allowed
; Example:
Region_Landfall = "DisallowForeigners"
[11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that is not as "Enabled = true" there not sucja thing
[11:47 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I forgot at first to use the Robust with the HG settings so the region with the extra configuration was still not accessible until I updated Robust.ini
[11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but yeah i was going to tell there is some flag somewhere
[11:48 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right, see my entry
[11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: like that DisallowForeigners
[11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess a major pain do manage
[11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: to
[11:49 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right
[11:50 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: usually I have found it works, but there has been times where they could enter. It might have been because the system was in flux with repect to code revisions
[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess any tp will just work
[11:50 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-))
[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: dunno need look to code
[11:51 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, right. That setting lets you specify things on a region by region basis. It is a minor pain when you want to allow them in to only one region and not to any of the other ones. A Disallow would be needed for each of the other regions in the grid.
[11:51 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can try after grid.xmir.org:8002:Landfall
[11:51 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you should not be able to TP there, but...
[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: nopes their are blocked
[11:52 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is it blocked?
[11:53 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: autorization service does check that falg
[11:53 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: flag
[11:54 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good
[11:55 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: assuming that is defined :)
[11:55 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Gridcommon.ini is the place to define it
[11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not sure
[11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: was looking for that
[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: it is a total pain
[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: should be on region.ini no?
[11:57 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it would make more sense, yeah
[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: string accessStr = config.GetString("Region_" scene.RegionInfo.RegionName.Replace(' ', '_'), String.Empty);
if (accessStr != string.Empty)
{
try
{
m_accessValue = (AccessFlags)Enum.Parse(typeof(AccessFlags), accessStr);
}
[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: bahhh
[11:58 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: syntax
[11:58 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hence: Region_Landfall = "DisallowForeigners"
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: private enum AccessFlags
{
None = 0, /* No restrictions */
DisallowResidents = 1, /* Only gods and managers*/
DisallowForeigners = 2, /* Only local people */
}
[11:58 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for the Landfall region
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: rigid almost useless crap
[11:58 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is nothing wrong wiht the options
[11:59 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is just stuck in a convoluted place
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well regions.ini is not easy to read on main ini code
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess that is why..
[12:00 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. The time went by rather quickly this week. Any last minute comments/questions?
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but can be there, and stored on its structures
[12:01 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is probably not used very often
[12:01 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: Region.ini cannot set values in the same dataset as OpenSim.ini, aren't they completely independant?
[12:01 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: perhaps clarifying documentation with an example would be useful
[12:01 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: region.ini is read on a dif dataset ues
[12:01 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and yes..
[12:02 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and at totally dif time
[12:02 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but that does not mean its data can't be there alter
[12:02 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: later
[12:05 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: I've got to go, appointment to get to
[12:05 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: If there are no last minute items for today I will call this meeting to a close.
[12:05 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: Bye all!
[12:05 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:05 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: TC Kayaker
[12:05 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Kayaker.
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[11:01 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. I'm sort of here. I'm having a late lunch so you can start without me and I'll return soon.
[11:01 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: no worries... the cat will eat your lunch
[11:02 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No commits this week, devs on vacation enjoying the summer :)
[11:02 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: you mean melting on summer
[11:02 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It is friggn hot yes
[11:02 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, Fortunately, both cats are currently sleeping so my food would be safe.
[11:02 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: 40C thins week they say
[11:03 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: this..
[11:03 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Something close to that for me too in a couple of days.
[11:03 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: bbiab
[11:03 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Approaching 30 here as well, inside that is, impossible to exist without AC, the servers would melt
[11:03 AM PT] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: we're having trouble geting to 23C
[11:04 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: late fiusa once was also sleeping like a angel... when i looked again she was happy draging half a chicken of my lunch almost bigger then her
[11:04 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: XD
[11:04 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Typical cat behavior
[11:04 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Aw.
[11:04 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:05 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I figured out how to do region impostors for OS, if anybody cares,
[11:05 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:05 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Without asset spam I hope
[11:05 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Not that many.
[11:06 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: oh jeez
[11:06 AM PT] Joe Magarac: OS doesn't have a huge mainland, like SL. Biggest cluster of contiguous regions seems to be about 100 on OSGrid. Is that right?
[11:07 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have 500 connected as a large ocean
[11:07 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh that depends on the grid
[11:07 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Equivalent to 13000 normal regions
[11:07 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: some cluster around lbsa
[11:07 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: some gris do have "mainland" like areas
[11:07 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think you underestimate the asset spam we already have, adding on to it isn't helpful
[11:07 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We already store terrain map images in assets for some reason
[11:07 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *smiles*
[11:07 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Why, it's one asset per region.
[11:07 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hi lyr.Lobo
[11:08 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah same for the terrain images, but it's a new asset every update
[11:08 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They aren't cleaned automatically
[11:08 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Are all 500 connected regions the same size?
[11:08 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 1024x1024m
[11:09 AM PT] Joe Magarac: OK, no problem. I have two cases. 1) all regions same size, can have 4x, 16x, 64x impostors.
[11:09 AM PT] Joe Magarac: 2) regions differ in sizes, 1x only.
[11:09 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I just don't get why you wouldn't just store the impostors locally on the viewer side instead of burdening the server with them. It has the capacity to generate meshes and textures at a much better rate than the poor server CPU would given viewers require a GPU
[11:10 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Because the viewer has to get the impostors from somewhere.
[11:10 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes, locally, from the hdd
[11:10 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: what is a lets say 64x impostor ?
[11:11 AM PT] Joe Magarac: 8 regions x 8 regions, very far away.
[11:11 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: in your concept that is..
[11:11 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: you merge regions??
[11:11 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Yes, although I have most of this in test.
[11:12 AM PT] Joe Magarac: The region impostors are currently just terrain - an elevatiom map with a texture.
[11:12 AM PT] Joe Magarac: No buildings yet.
[11:12 AM PT] Joe Magarac: But you can see faraway mountains.
[11:12 AM PT] Joe Magarac: It's mostly fo SL, but I want to support OS too.
[11:12 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Let's say the impostors are 1mb and you have 1000 regions, that's 1gb in assets just for that. Each update it may generate a new one due to rounding errors so sends a 1mb asset to the server. Restarts daily that's another 350mb each year
[11:13 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Storage don't grow on trees
[11:13 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I'm thinking weekly updates.
[11:13 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: How would the region unless it kept track of the last impostor it stored somehow
[11:14 AM PT] Joe Magarac: ?
[11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hwo are you "decimating" the terrain ?
[11:14 AM PT] Joe Magarac: The plan is that updating is done by a bot.
[11:14 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: oh jeez
[11:14 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Terrain is reduced by usual mesh reduction.
[11:15 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Again, thiis is mostly for SL.
[11:15 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Long distance travel on land isn't a big thing in OS.
[11:15 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hwo do you fectch the mesh? go there fetch the heighmap?
[11:15 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: stop telling that...
[11:16 AM PT] Joe Magarac: For display, it's a mesh asset and a texture,
[11:16 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: you are making a assumption only bades on a s few grids you did visit
[11:16 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: based
[11:16 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: How about this. I can make you some changes to the http handlers on the grid side so you can use get_region to query regions around the one you are on and get a return for their http address. Then I'll add a http handler that returns the region heightmap and the maptile image. From that you generate a mesh with the maptile applied to it, locally, on the viewer end and store that in local cache folder. That won't get you buildings, but it's a start
[11:16 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Yes.
[11:17 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: you can't assume tehre aren't large clusters of regoins on opensim
[11:17 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Yes, some way to get hiight maps would help.
[11:17 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well you only need to put a child agent there :)
[11:17 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Are there large clusters of regions on opensim?
[11:17 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but that is connection :)
[11:18 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://zetaworlds.com/map?x=7380
[11:18 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: btw regions view range is also a opensim setting
[11:18 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: regions can be told to tell viewers to connect very far...
[11:18 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and ofc BUMMM
[11:19 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Mixed sized regions technically in view distance yes, I worry about that each time I see that on the map
[11:19 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm ll region terrain tesslation is pretty bad
[11:19 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Do mixed sized regions touching even work in OS?
[11:19 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: nearby regions terrain shape changes a lot as we walk closer
[11:19 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back. Catching up...
[11:20 AM PT] Joe Magarac: The C viewers only support one touching region per side.
[11:20 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Apart from crossings and teleport routing getting funky you can technically put them next to each other, but the viewer will not like it at all
[11:20 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc they do.. as long there is only one per side
[11:20 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but i tols nothing about muxed size
[11:20 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( wakeup keyboard .. )
[11:20 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Putting a single region next to a larger one generally tends to work most of the time, but two vars is just explosions during crossings half the time
[11:21 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but i told nothing about mixed sized
[11:21 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: no they do not explode
[11:21 AM PT] Joe Magarac: For impostors, there's no real need to impostor water-only regions.
[11:21 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: my test region is a 1km region with a 256m next to it
[11:22 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes that works better, but two different size vars not so much
[11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: for ages
[11:22 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The crossings often end up at 0,0
[11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: all works fine
[11:22 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Something in the position calculation gets weird
[11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: as long as there is only one per side
[11:22 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I actually support arbitrary touching regions in the current Sharpview but the C viewers don't.
[11:23 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah they dont
[11:23 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I see places on the OSGrid map where that appears, but I never found those regions live when I went there.
[11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: osg map is not updated
[11:24 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Anyway, I can look into extending the http handlers so you can do get_region_by_position on the public handler as well. Region side something to get_heightmap, the maptile should already be requestable through some handler, forgot which one but its there
[11:24 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I know.
[11:24 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Vincent, thanks.
[11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so you may see things not real
[11:24 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you need specific region cases to test I'll set them up on zw for you to test that's easy enough
[11:24 AM PT] Joe Magarac: If there's a place on OSGrid where I can see two regoins alongside anohter region I'd like to go visit it.l
[11:25 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: there used to be a "mainland" around lbsa area
[11:25 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc "mailand" is more lag.. so ppl just prefer isolation
[11:26 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I saw that on the map but could not get there.
[11:26 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Right. Isolated regions, no problem for impostors - they're not impostored at all.
[11:26 AM PT] Joe Magarac: You can't see them from far away.
[11:26 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well my test regions are just 1km north :)
[11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: errr 512m ?
[11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: my test regions here
[11:28 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: on my local grid one is 256m
[11:28 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: See with doing the impostors on viewer end via requesting the region heightmap a user that doesn't want theirs shown can turn that off or leave on if they want to be visible even with empty water between the regions
[11:28 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It gives privacy control to the region owner
[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: how many truis do the impostors have?
[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and uniform x,y sizes? or variable ?
[11:29 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Right. Won't even try to map anything smaller than 2x2 regions. No need for impostors.
[11:30 AM PT] Joe Magarac: How many tris? Right now, about 1024 for terrain.
[11:30 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Working on better impstors for urban areas using Open Drone Map.
[11:30 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: uniform density or varialble?
[11:30 AM PT] Joe Magarac: They get mesh reduced like everything else.
[11:31 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Flat regions are really cheap.
[11:31 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: everything else is not a thing on c viewers :)
[11:31 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Oh, right, mesh upload for OS lacks Havok.
[11:31 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: diferent things have dif tessalation ( prior to gpus based tesselation )
[11:32 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: duhhh havoc means nothing on t6hat
[11:33 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: think i told many times that they use hacd mesh tools on that
[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: something many others use.. or used
[11:34 AM PT] Joe Magarac: OK. More to say about mesh reduction in future..
[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: anf that is on mesh upload automatic LOD
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( or worse convex decomposition for physcis, that mostly is a fail )
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but viewers do more tessaltion...
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: liek on terrain...
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: prims also have lods..
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: all diferent ways..
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so i asked :)
[11:36 AM PT] Joe Magarac: If you're into convex decomposition, there's now approximate convex decomposition. Some overlap is allowed, which results in fewer awful cases.
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: this was donbe before GPU based tessaltion
[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well convex decomp is other topic, for now just not recomended for opensim
[11:37 AM PT] Joe Magarac: OK.
[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ubode does not use convex.. bullet does its own decomposion
[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and physics is unrelated to view
[11:38 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Right.
[11:38 AM PT] Joe Magarac: SL is moving away from Havok and is looking at options.
[11:40 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: C# has options for at least two other physics engines, at least bindings exist for them, just needs a wrapper in OpenSim code to use them
[11:40 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Easier said than done
[11:40 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Enough from me for today. Thanks.
[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess other option is physX
[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but that is kinda nvidia thing
[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not clear how open is or will stay
[11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: bullet seems pretty dead
[11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: many games endup using own engines
[11:41 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Bullet stll gettig updates and bumped their rev a year ago
[11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: some derivatives of cryengine etc
[11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: nahh only a python nonsense
[11:42 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: core engine is pretty dead
[11:42 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is bepuphysics and joltphysics that have bindings for C#
[11:43 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: bepu is actually C# itself
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well that is for crap #
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: crap c#
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not for programs made in proper languages
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ;)
[11:43 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Dunno I have not tried either of them to see how they perform, but the demos look okay
[11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: all demos look ok
[11:44 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The OpenSim demos I have seen beg to differ xD
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: think unreal used physX now move to own Chaos engine
[11:45 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Wouldl be cool if SL and OS migrate to same engine
[11:46 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but unlikely
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ubity is PhysX
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ubity ?? lol
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ubity
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: unity!!
[11:46 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes *smiles*
[11:46 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ubITY
[11:46 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Pardon me, will be afk a bit ...thank you for the meeting
[11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: what opensim engine? ppl keep using bullet
[11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: others ubode
[11:55 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and ODE is even older than bullet ...
[11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( i mean the engines.. not their use in opensim )
[11:57 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Bullet not being maintained is kinda scary
[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well not really
[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: simple physics did change..
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: din't
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: does not go to web.. has no use for certs...
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: no real reason for updates..
[11:59 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: except possible some new CPU instructions..
[11:59 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: all very questionable anyways
[12:00 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting. Thanks all.
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: have fun
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well we are in the hour also
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: any topic?
[12:01 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: nothing new here... I do need to go RL
[12:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: We seem to be all talked out for today and we are at the top of the hour.
[12:02 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I will call this meeting to a close. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[19:02 UTC] *** Logging stopped. ***
[18:05 UTC] *** Logging started. ***
[11:05 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:05 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:05 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:05 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I was delayed by a couple of household chores and a cat.
[11:05 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I currently have one standing on my lap.
[11:06 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:06 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: bye a scanner.. mien is sleeping on mine
[11:07 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc that did nto work with fiusa.. she did want lap also :)
[11:07 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well.. code changes.. yes.. there where some
[11:08 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I have stuff piled on top of my scanner. No room for a cat. :)
[11:08 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: the pimmesher.dll used on map, beening almost like Dalhias github where not visible
[11:09 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so i decided to merge that into our fork of libopenmetaverse
[11:09 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: then made several changes like changing its Coord adn Quat to libomv Vector3 and quaternion
[11:09 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: etc
[11:10 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: of them made several "cosmetic" changes
[11:10 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that also extended to decoder of sl mesh asset that is on another part of libomv
[11:11 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: them updated CSJ2K for the very old 0.9.x to very modern 3.0
[11:11 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: to findout that most changes are pure useless
[11:11 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: in fact broken
[11:11 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: oh?
[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so removed a lot of that garbage and appled bac fixes from lkalif anf hurlima
[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hurliman
[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and ofc changed even more
[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: tried to make the use of k2k discard level to work..
[11:13 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I see you had fun
[11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: completly broken on that
[11:13 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but now everything works?
[11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: of then went to break warp3d map
[11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: making use of discard levels
[11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so we do not decode a 1024 tex to then scale down to 256px
[11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: now it is only decoded to 256px directly
[11:15 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I should run some tests how performance changed on that on some of the heavy regions I have
[11:15 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that is one of the few advantages og jpeg2000
[11:16 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: of made changes on sculptmaps ( part of that primmesher
[11:16 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: sculpts with alpha where not showing on map
[11:17 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: if you look to map, you can now see those ugly pink steps south of us
[11:17 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: like sculpted trees you mean?
[11:18 AM PT] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: ow
[11:18 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002: Hello *smiles*
[11:18 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: many did work.. but soem creators add alpha to hide the map
[11:18 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and that was not working
[11:18 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: moslty bc we use Bitmap so scale now
[11:19 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so.. that cleared all RGB also :)
[11:19 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel i made CSJ"K to also skip alpha channel on demand
[11:19 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sounds like more memory
[11:19 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: csj2k even
[11:20 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so it returns a 24bpprgb bitmap for those
[11:20 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i plan to totally remove bitmap from sculpts
[11:21 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: in fact from the all map generator
[11:21 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: except convertion to png and similar
[11:21 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but not today :)
[11:21 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: for nwo csj2k does return bitmap
[11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i removed the crap new broken format they added
[11:22 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can merge that along with the map rendering changes I still have to contribute
[11:22 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Might as well break it all at once :)
[11:23 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:23 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well that was it, mostly :)
[11:24 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: That was a lot for one week.
[11:25 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No wonder it was so warm, Ubit overheated :)
[11:25 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:29 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ANy other news for today?
[11:30 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not from me. been very busy RL the last 14 days
[11:31 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I know what you mean, Gavin. I have a work project that needs to be done asap. It has taken a lot of my time. Almost done with it so I'll have time to get back to other things soon.
[11:32 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: assuming cat lets you
[11:32 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :) yes, there is that.
[11:32 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: In July the rain usually is pissing down the whole month, so time to be indoors
[11:32 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: rest of year is ice :)
[11:32 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not were I am
[11:33 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we had snow cover 5 days this winter
[11:33 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:33 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You know the climate is messed up when we had more snow down here, yikes
[11:33 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in the UK?
[11:34 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Germany
[11:34 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm at the end of a 3 day heat wave. Feels like 43C outside today.
[11:34 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is normal
[11:34 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we have the Gulf current gracing our coast, so it is very mild for the lattitude
[11:34 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: inland they have snow
[11:35 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: While logging in to here I saw mention of a new version of 7.1.13 Firestorm. Has anyone tried it yet?
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: trum my decide to add tarifs to the golf of america current
[11:36 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Gulf
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc no idea where that gulf is
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Seems to be the texture decoding has gotten worse in these versions whenever avatars loading in seeing long frame times, something being looked into though
[11:36 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-))
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well yeah byt he also likes golf :)
[11:36 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: he has it framed in his golden office
[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well my code changes have nothing to do with avatars
[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well and that is viewer side :)
[11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc now many may be using 2k textures
[11:38 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lots of them
[11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: oen needs to see your hair well
[11:38 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or the gemstone on your ring
[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:39 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: one very blingy pixel
[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yr hair should be 2k alpha only tex
[11:41 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: like the fiber mesh beard I made once with tens of thousands of strands textured each with 2k textures
[11:41 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lags so much your head can barely move, hehe
[11:42 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002 smiles
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: on those j2k changes ofc i did look to our openjpeg
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that should be faster..
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but ofc needs to be compiled on every target platform
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and the code is unreadable :)
[11:46 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Oh, has OpenJPEG improved?
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: no i mean our fork of it
[11:46 AM PT] Joe Magarac: OK.
[11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: like try to make use id discard level on it also
[11:47 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why is it unreadable?
[11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: csj2k code not only is C# but also C# that is direct conversion from java
[11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: var names with 3 letters at most :)
[11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and big savings on \n packing a lot of code per line
[11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: typical old C :)
[11:49 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: variable names sizes have big impact on performance
[11:49 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: .. during compilation :P
[11:49 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Right.
[11:50 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Where does the simulator side use discard level in JPEGs?
[11:50 AM PT] Joe Magarac: That's mostly a viewer thing.
[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i added that use
[11:51 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it does if you use tape to store the result of each compiler pass I guess
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: why decode to 1024px when we wat 256 ?
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: mostly on map
[11:51 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Other than scuplts, what does the simulator use JPEGs for?
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: map
[11:51 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Oh, right.
[11:54 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Would you say trunk is stable now or still working on adjustments with the new code?
[11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: trunk stable?? since when ??
[11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:54 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well seems as we chat, it is working
[11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: we are on it
[11:55 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: osg did a release in middle of that.. ofc with a bug on ubode sculpts.. oops
[11:55 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: was replaced already
[11:56 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002 grins and nods
[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel we don't do ll trees on map.. if you asked that gavin.Hird
[11:58 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Does ubODE unmanaged lib need to be rebuilt?
[11:58 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sort of, but there are other sculpted trees around too still
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: kinda of a pain to add that procedural tree generator
[11:58 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I can see that
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: no cuga.Rajal
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: changes where on managed code
[11:58 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not that I want them, because it would obscure everything else on the map
[11:59 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well guess not many use them
[11:59 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: they should be a lot better
[11:59 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but ll likes the Mesh $$$
[11:59 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: indeed
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: one tree is 25 UDP bytes to send ( plus textures mostly on viewers native caches )
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: same from grass
[12:00 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting
[12:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. Thanks for dropping by.
[12:01 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: very light weight compared to a mesh tree or even sculpt tree
[12:01 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: one day he will type after log out :p
[12:01 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: .. will type bye.. :)
[12:02 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc viewers do need to render them..
[12:02 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Any last minute items for today?
[12:02 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: generate the meshes etc
[12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but vegetation is a important part of many regions
[12:03 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002: Thank you all for your support! Have a great week!
[12:03 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002: Thanks, Ubit.
[12:03 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002 grins
[12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:03 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Lyr.
[12:04 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: would be boring without vegetation unless you have a Mars themed region
[12:04 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[12:04 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Or desert area
[12:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel or artic
[12:05 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or endless snow
[12:05 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: desrts have oasis
[12:05 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: endless ocean for that sake
[12:06 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well impressive the vegetation some games now have
[12:06 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, but they support instantiation
[12:06 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: hi dino
[12:07 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to head out. Have a great week everyone
[12:07 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so the rendering load is comparatively lower
[12:07 PM PT] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: ow
[12:07 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Cuga.
[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ok rl calls
[12:08 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for me too
[12:08 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have a great week all
[12:08 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just past the hour and as people are leaving I will draw this meeting to a close.
[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: see you all next week if not before :)
[12:08 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:08 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cheers
[19:08 UTC] *** Logging stopped. ***
[18:03 UTC] *** Logging started. ***
[11:03 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello Andrew!
[11:03 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm or it is my crap edge?
[11:04 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You use edge? Unironically?
[11:04 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Absolute madlad
[11:04 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and on purpose
[11:04 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: rawdogging the internet like it's 1998
[11:04 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hahaha
[11:05 AM PT] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I was pointing that out to so,eome yesterday. Nobody has accessed the internet directly since NAT
[11:05 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: duhh my edge was fast sending me to a odd page
[11:06 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: sounds about right
[11:07 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No new commits since last week looks like
[11:09 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I have nothing today. I'm testing that impostor thing I talked about.
[11:10 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: Ohh nm it is the page of namecheap
[11:10 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: "The domain has expired. Is this your domain? Renew now"
[11:10 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That better be a joke
[11:11 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess mel forgot to renew it
[11:12 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It expired today
[11:12 AM PT] Joe Magarac: what domain?
[11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: our opensimulator.org
[11:14 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Uh oh.
[11:14 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm surprised it isn't set for automatic renewal.
[11:14 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cool, she has what like two weeks to renew or the domain enters the open market to be bought by some chinese hackers
[11:16 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: godaddy was a name service known to snap up expired domains.
[11:16 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Yes, I just looked. You can still renew but not for much longer.
[11:17 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If they have, good luck getting that back
[11:19 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:20 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Looks like not much to do here today, so I will leave early. Thanks all.
[11:20 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: take care, Joe
[11:20 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. Thanks for dropping by.
[11:21 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: with our holiday on Friday, many are out on vacation
[11:21 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: It is Canada Day today.
[11:21 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have honestly had it with both mel and diva being a detriment to the project and effectively holding things hostage to their incompetence. From not renewing servers and now domains, to writing problematic code and not actually doing anything for the last 3 years. They should no longer be involved in making decisions or be the ones holding the critical infrastructure hostage. Forgive my directness, but this is utterly unprofessional and disgusting towards the developers and contributors to the project.
[11:22 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: try again, working now
[11:23 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: All registrars send out multiple emails regarding renewal, same with the server itself, to not see them is just plain incompetence
[11:23 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not for me
[11:29 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Why is she and diva allowed to hold the project hostage like this. Being at the mercy of whether they remember to pay for things, potentially erasing decades of work. That's messed up
[11:29 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: My registrar sends out a renewal notice a month before and if I ignored it they automatically put through payment for the next 2 years.
[11:30 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can pay ten damn years in advance and a .com isn't that expensive
[11:30 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The server is with hetzner, which allows adding funds to the account so it automatically pays for things instead of having to pay each month manually
[11:31 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Both mel and diva have not submitted any code in years. The latter wouldn't even fix the recursion issue in wifi, just merging my bandaid that I clearly stated needs code revision
[11:32 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Mel going as far as admitting on irc that she has no idea how to properly configure the most basic anti spam floor measure there is, leaving Ubit to manually ban whatever was flooding the webserver this week
[11:33 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm sorry to be so open, but this shit really makes me mad. It's disrespectful to Ubit being the sole developer now and all the contributors spending hours and days of their time trying to fix things and further the project
[11:33 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Only to be held back by these two to the point it all runs outdated software now waiting to have an RCE completely nuke everything
[11:34 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Are there even backups of anything critical like wiki and mantis?
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm Updated Date: 2025-07-01T17:51:27Z
Creation Date: 2007-07-01T17:46:52Z
Registry Expiry Date: 2026-07-01T17:46:52Z
[11:35 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I hope there is but I couldn't tell you where they are kept.
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: seems it was updated ??
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i still get sent to the expired site
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Great work mel, now renew it for 9 more years so at least we are safe from your incompetence for that time, hopefully by then someone with a brain can take over
[11:36 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: not me
[11:37 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: been working for a few minutes now
[11:37 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: DNS records can take some time to propogate.
[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: this the tmp expire entry should have a low tls... but seems still on my cache
[11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: can you open it now?
[11:38 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yep, that's edge
[11:38 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: i'm on it
[11:38 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: it's open
[11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i also did resart the machie
[11:38 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: been open since 22 minutes after the hour
[11:38 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The joys of cached dns records not obeying their renewal times
[11:38 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Welcome to Windows
[11:40 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Depends on the TTL values that were set.
[11:41 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Windows ignores them quite often
[11:41 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hence why dynamic dns is so problematic for running a grid on when the dns needs to update to a new IP, but all the caches just don't pull the new info
[11:42 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: TTL is a suggestion, not a requirement unfortunately
[11:43 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I actually have something to address this week so before I get an aneurysm...
[11:43 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Are there a lot of DNS being run on servers running Windows?
[11:44 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, if you have another topic of discussion go ahead.
[11:44 AM PT] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm on Mac. I'm getting namecheap
[11:44 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I wrote about this at length in an article, the short form being apparently a lot of people out there are not enforcing the minimum requirements for avatar names. Names with áccènted characters or names that are only 2 characters long. In the best case you just can't search for those users, worst case is the encoding breaks expecting utf and receiving unicode resulting in the bytes just being placed in IMs and creator uui's
[11:45 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is some enforcement in the create user routine to prevent entry of HG related chars, but no alphanumeric check
[11:45 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Similarly many systems, such as again friggn diva wifi, don't enforce that either
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm i see the wrong dns also on google
[11:46 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's not directly breaking things in the sense of data corruption although it technically falls under that criteria
[11:46 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Also no minimum password requirements, not even in length
[11:47 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: As much as that's an issue on the user end, enforcing proper names should definitely be done just to maintain some level of compatibility
[11:47 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, the IP address appears to be wrong at this time (for me). I can't access the machine. The IP resolves to something in bodis.com
[11:47 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm trying to make some changes to wifi to fix this for anyone that runs that given diva no longer seems to care much for it, but with any other system that directly inserts data into the DB the maintainers of that will need to enforce some standards
[11:48 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: working now and set to auto renew, Andrew
[11:48 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Impressive, she found the button for that on her own?
[11:48 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks
[11:48 AM PT] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: hasn't propagated to here (Canada)
[11:49 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A small regex check for the names and their length should be enough and trivial to implement
[11:50 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: For anyone wishing to read the specifics: https://zetaworlds.com/blog/view/opensim-naming-standards
[11:51 AM PT] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: password complexity check might be an idea. Mine's a common name (nostalgia's sake)
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i see it "broken" everywhere on nslookup
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( i mean our dns )
[11:52 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A min length of 12 chars would be a start, but the name problem is frankly much bigger, because the only way to really fix that up is to change the name of the avatar, which has it's own problems
[11:52 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: IMO, it would be good to restrict avatar names to something that can be typed without too much difficulty. The use of accented and special characters is one of the reasons I don't want to see support for display names. How do you talk with someone whose name you can't type in.
[11:52 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You then need to change the creator uui everywhere as well, which is a huge pain
[11:52 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The serialized IM requires it to be utf8 so when it's given unicode it just dumbs the bytes as you can see in the article
[11:54 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can't really fix this unless all grids that got bad data are contacted and told what to do to rectify the issue otherwise content might still get shared over HG with bad data in it
[11:55 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Already a massive issue, so every bit that can be done to avoid bad data, especially something simple like this is worth doing in my opinion
[11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well i still see our domain as opensimulator.org. 259 CNAME 77980.bodis.com
[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and bodis, com seems to be dns trader
[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: bahh
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm or dns parking service
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: anyways, still very broken
[12:01 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have some untested changes for wifi in my fork of that to fix both that recursion issue and enforce some basic standards for the names and even passwords, don't really have the setup or willingness to test those though
[12:01 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Probably should mirror the alphanumeric check for names into core
[12:02 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: While technically underscores and hyphens might be fine, not sure
[12:02 PM PT] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: definitely not periods
[12:04 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, that's what I'm seeing.
[12:05 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, We can make recommendations to grids but I think it would still be up to them to determine what they would allow in the names of their avatars.
[12:05 PM PT] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: Non-authoritative answer:
opensimulator.org canonical name = 77980.bodis.com.
[12:05 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most that have cusotm web interfaces will need to implement proper names yeah
[12:05 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Just hope they sanitize the supplied names to avoid SQL injection issues.
[12:08 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: We are now past the hour mark. Any thing more regarding names, Vincent?
[12:08 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Nope
[12:08 PM PT] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: Isn't SQL injection like a 20-year old issue?
[12:11 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, It is a widely know issue and web site and DB admins should know how to avoid the problem. Doesn't mean all sites are secured against them. Buffer overflow issues in code have been known for decades yet they often get found up in new code.
[12:12 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, ty Vincent.
[12:12 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other topics for today before we go our separate ways until this time next week?
[12:15 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Some discussions re: domain name and servers will need to take place. I hope the name server info gets updated soon to point to the OS server.
[12:15 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: That will do it for this week. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[19:15 UTC] *** Logging stopped. ***
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[11:02 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyonel
[11:02 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: machine load is not high
[11:03 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:03 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah it's something network related making it slow, but eh eventually it loads so good enough
[11:03 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Who knows what kind of malware already got into the poor thing... or should I say melware...
[11:06 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well good news.. no new bugs added during last week!
[11:06 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: If you do a ping it might confirm if there are network issues.
[11:06 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks grins at Ubit.
[11:06 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did write something earlier today that I might contribute in given it apparently isn't something that can be handled any other way
[11:07 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A validation function for http requests that gracefully returns whether a connection can even be made from the request parameters
[11:08 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Currently http request will just fail with an error, which exposes the request address among other things publicly so not ideal for some
[11:08 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can't handle it with try catch either cause it's not an exception as such
[11:08 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess such thing is slower that actually doing a connection.... but who knows
[11:09 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well I certainly wouldn't recommend doing that every request, but perhaps as a way to first validate whether the parameters work or if the address can be resolved, such stuff mostly
[11:09 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I had an issue with that for some reason DNS reporting a NAT IP for a public machine and since that's blacklisted by the filter it just blew up without a way to handle the error
[11:10 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Perhaps osHTTPRequest throwing actual exceptions for try catch to handle could be a way to do it also
[11:10 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The open nature of the errors potentially exposing data or just being annoying as they broadcast to everyone has been a topic over the years
[11:11 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Quite a few times have I heard the suggestion to restrict the messages to the script owners
[11:11 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Fixing the error message sounds like a simpler fix.
[11:11 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think that has merit, but perhaps estate owner and manager might benefit from knowing about script errors as well
[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess error to all is a nice tactic
[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: to have scripts fixed
[11:12 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Either option would be better than the message going to everyone
[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: in that mainland thing
[11:12 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well yeah, proper DNS is always a good idea, but there currently is no way to "test" a http request to make sure it doesn't blow up. If it does explode then there is no feedback to the script on what has failed specifically, so you can't really handle it either
[11:13 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: No easy way to throw an error that ties it back to a line of code in a script?
[11:14 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: http request only returns null key in certain cases, otherwise just errors and returns nothing basically
[11:14 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If it threw a fatal script exception then try catch would be able to handle that, but it's a custom error function
[11:18 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Like I said multiple ways of doing it, my first attempt right now is just a validation function returning integers corresponding to failure modes otherwise just returning true. Use case is validating urls, dns or parameters and headers. Possibly could do a oshttprequest throwing actual exceptions for handling via try catch, but that's kind of undocumented behavior and not LSL-like so to speak... not that I care, but yeah
[11:19 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: you cant add much to httprequest
[11:20 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: at least nothing liek goes out like dns
[11:20 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: brb
[11:20 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: it is async for a reason...
[11:21 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks is back
[11:22 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have to test it still, but if you look at the lsl api code for that all I have right now is just copy of everything that can throw an error and just gave that a return code, not actually doing the request itself, just the checks basically
[11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( ofc ther ossl things that decided to be sync where ... lets say a mistake.. (
[11:22 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A sort of --dry-run deal
[11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: like the notecard nonsense
[11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well at least there is some caching on those...
[11:24 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Speaking of notecards. I saw the other day that "persistence ejected" and "persistence visitor" notecards are growing at about 10000 per week on ZetaWorlds. Haven't checked yet what script that is, but not a great rate to see that much new stuff
[11:25 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most of these I suspect are just entries pointing to the same data so not much waste besides the db entries
[11:26 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Our "friends" from IMA apparently made a parcel dwell log thing as well, going up by about 1500 notecards per week, so much for their expertise I guess
[11:26 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The fear of losing data due to restarts seems to compel some people to save notecards as often as every 5 minutes
[11:27 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No checks of new data or anything like that either
[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: pff you just need newer TB ssds
[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: they may grow on trees... try plant some :p
[11:29 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: lol
[11:29 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was about to say
[11:30 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Don't plant seagate or you'll poison the well
[11:33 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:34 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I used to prefer Seagate. How times have changed.
[11:35 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Supposedly their volume discounts is why they can get away with less than ideal mtbf rates
[11:39 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other items for today? Any upcoming events of note?
[11:40 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Oh right. I did some tests this week and found some interesting behavior of garbage collection in regards to maptile generation. Changing to Warp3D for the initial tile generation at startup would make memory consumption explode as somehow that memory got pretty stuck, gc wouldn't free it up after the maptile was made. Every new simulator would also just grow in memory usage. Doing normal tiles and only later switching to Warp3D would exhibit and increase in memory as well, but gc would eventually start clearing it all out
[11:40 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Doing that daily now and seeing the bumps of that generation going up and down in memory now
[11:41 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Have to do some specific tests if the initial memory used for tile generation is freed at all
[11:41 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I think there is an outstanding bug report about memory usage by Warp3D.
[11:42 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well it's bound to be higher and a bit glitchy as it tries to render stuff only to eventually fail
[11:43 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I suspect part of the memory usage is storing the maptile on scene rather than assets, so I expected more memory usage with that code, just not quite as much and with such odd behavior
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: there is no bug... it is jsut that
[11:43 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Like it would literally add 25mb per simulator started
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: GC has its own mind abotu memory release
[11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well at least it is a bit better than on mono days
[11:44 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Certainly
[11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and warp3d does use tons of memory yeah
[11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: it full draws a region...
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so needs to get everything
[11:45 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Really the odd part for me is this weird linear memory increase, it's as if it needs 25mb extra for each dotnet app
[11:46 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The first simulator using 400mb, next 425, 450 etc. all running empty regions with nothing in it
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: pff just buy more ram...
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: it may grow on trees also :p
[11:47 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I wonder if starting simulators one after the other without giving them time to settle down might play a part
[11:48 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I don't think it's code, it's something in the runtime adding memory per instance for some reason
[11:48 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Once they all started and had time they show the same memory consumption as expected
[11:49 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I know that dotnet caches a ton of sys info and whatnot at start of an application so perhaps there is a bug there, have yet to check their issue tracking for anything related
[11:50 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Given it's not idea to rapidly start simulators one after the other anyways unless you have plenty of resources to spare maybe just a quirk though
[11:50 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wouldn't be the first
[11:51 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I ran one system where I started about 5 regions at a time. No more than that due to the CPU load.
[11:52 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Unhooking the maptile generation from the startup process has reduced the load massively since I can just disable that entirely now and generate the maptiles later
[11:52 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Next to the db calls it's the heaviest thing
[11:53 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: pff a 14900ks will eat regions per lunch... or breakfeast or dinner... may even eat your wallet!
[11:54 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Or degrade and explode
[11:55 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: or/and who knows :)
[11:58 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: That t-rex doesn't know its place. It used to stay out of the bar.
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that was before he learned about beer
[11:59 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:59 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting. Thanks!
[11:59 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: We are almost at the top of the hour. Any last minute items for today?
[11:59 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: have fun
[11:59 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. See you next week.
[12:00 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm noticing it must be summer. A couple of the other regular attendees have been absent for a few weeks.
[12:01 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well it is winter in australia
[12:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: As there appears to be nothing further for today I will call this meeting to a close. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:01 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and other places down there >(
[12:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: True.
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[11:02 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:03 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: Well this last week we had the sad news about the Death of Mal Burns
[11:04 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I was about to ask about the statue on the other side of the bar. It took me a moment but I take it that it is a memorial for Mal Burns who recently passed.
[11:04 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yes
[11:04 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We are very sad at his loss.
[11:04 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Here is a link to his facebook memories page
[11:04 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: https://www.facebook.com/groups/friendsofmal/
[11:05 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: everyone is welcome
[11:05 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: it is a nice work by Cherry Manga that does ilustrate soem of Mal's activities
[11:05 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thirza said in Sunday's Inworld Review that they will plan a party celebrating his life this Fall
[11:06 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: He thought the world of you and your hard work here in the Core Developer group
[11:06 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Very nice work by Cherry Manga indeed. Nice memorial for Mal.
[11:06 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Good.
[11:06 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ty, Lyr for the link.
[11:06 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Yes
[11:06 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Adam Frisby reached out
[11:06 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and sent his condolences as did Philip Rosedale and others who Mal worked with over the years
[11:07 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: He will be missed
[11:07 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Back to you - and thank you for inspiring us.
[11:10 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well he leave a void hard to fill
[11:10 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I ran across Mal over in SL many years ago. Didn't talk much with him over those years. I remember him from when I first properly met him. He needed a door script that would need a code to operate it.
[11:10 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: He will be missed at the OSCC event later this year.
[11:11 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: They toured his home in Craft and the things he loved. He loved Opensim best
[11:12 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I met him at the old Dr. Dobbs JOurnal meetings in SL as part of Second Life 2.0 with the Sun microsystems meetings and developer events
[11:12 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: he was trying to live stream and I was insisting on talking *laughs*
[11:12 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: it was 2007
[11:13 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and I knew no strangers. Since then, everywhere I went for events or conferences, there was Mal
[11:13 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:13 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you for sharing, Andrew
[11:13 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: yw
[11:13 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Those DDJ meetings would have been interesting to me ifI had known about them then.
[11:14 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: they were wonderful
[11:14 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: inspired me to bring my computer science classes into world...62 of them between SL and Opensim
[11:14 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: learned so much from them
[11:14 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we're all connected
[11:15 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: did you see a new version of firestorm beta was released?
[11:16 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I was told the other day that supposedly LL had a brainfart again and decided to add something that forcefully reduces view distance if the viewer starts dropping framerate to the point it got a lot of testers mad... business as usual I guess
[11:16 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah seems 78558 is out
[11:17 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: im on 78266 still
[11:17 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Unfortunately still no sign of a timezone fix or remedy for the script syntax issue in sight
[11:19 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Reducing draw distance if the viewer is dropping frames sounds reasonable.
[11:19 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah maybe, but not by 300%
[11:20 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello Cuga
[11:20 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: That does seem a bit extreme if someones draw distance wasn't that high to start with. Makes more sense for someone using a high value for draw distance.
[11:20 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Lyr, Hi all
[11:20 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hey, Cuga.
[11:21 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have been running with a locked framerate for a while now, because the number itself isn't the problem as long as you can maintain more than 30fps, but the jitter can get so bad that it jumps all over the place which creates fatigue on the eyes
[11:22 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did propose a dynamic framerate lock based on frame jitter in order to lock it to a framerate the viewer can maintain consistently
[11:22 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Thing is with how bad it has gotten even getting to 30fps in the first place can be a struggle depending on the region contents or even the avatars
[11:25 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: !'m at only 29.4 fps while just sitting here. My fps would probably drop in a busier area or if I was walking around some busy area.
[11:26 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah pbr viewers got a bit better, but still heavier than older generation
[11:26 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: sadly a trend in all games
[11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: you now need at least 16GB of gpu ram, and a recent core to play unreal etc new titles
[11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and a nice power bill at end of month..
[11:28 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Optimization is so poor even with top of the line hardware it might not even use half of it and still struggle
[11:28 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Dune: Awakening looks fantastic on 10GB GPUs
[11:28 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The viewer is no different in that respect. Getting full hardware use out of it almost never happens
[11:28 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: only optimization you have is on nvidia profits :p
[11:30 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: An m4 mac basically getting the same framerate as a gtx 1080 these days
[11:30 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: with Mac running in x86 emulation
[11:31 AM PT] Joe Magarac: It's getting there. Look at system usage while Firestorm 7.1.13 is running. More CPUs and GPU resources are being used than in older versions.
[11:31 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I complain about what I feel is system bloat in terms of lots of library dependencies and get told "just get a bigger HD because they are cheap". Seems some people don't feel the need to optimize code because you can always get a faster CPU/system. :P
[11:31 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Higher memory consumption equals more cpu load, something has to manage all that memory in the end
[11:32 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:32 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In some cases adding more system resources might actually drop performance if you look at benchmarking leaderboards the highest scores don't always use the biggest of the biggest parts
[11:34 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Something unrelated. There is a new ticket on mantis regarding object parameters and linking. Stating that linking causes some object parameters to be dropped so unlinking them the objects do not return to their original state. I haven't done any testing on that yet, but looked at the code a bit and the parameters should all be on the part not the object so not sure how linking would be causing this
[11:35 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I suspected the hierarchy of sop and sog would be to blame, but doesn't look like that should be the case
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( more about Mal https://hgsafari.blogspot.com/2025/07/remembering-mal-burns.html )
[11:35 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Unless some parts are not properly handled in code and I'm just blind, which is possible
[11:36 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Perhaps it is assigning the parameters of the object to the unlinked parts.
[11:36 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: what kind of parameters?
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=9207
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: object sale
[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: a reset of such data is kinda expected on link changes
[11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: when any kind of prim can be promoted to root, it is better those things are on a well defined state
[11:39 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think the main issue there is that yes the root part should dictate those things, but it can do so without having to overwrite the settings of the parts themselves
[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: no we can not
[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: we have no idea whare such parts had been
[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: in fact in future some of those things may be removed from prims
[11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: moved to a linkset container, we already have called SceneObjectGroup
[11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that one in fact may have a new parent thing
[11:42 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: to support linkset hierachy
[11:42 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and physics joints etc
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: sd, as i said, linkset properties may not survive a change on link
[11:44 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think you misunderstood what I meant. The current way the sale price property is supplied via the scene object group is by pulling from the m_rootpart itself, because sale parameters are stored on the part at the moment, so linking and unlinking should have no effect on them unless something overwrites the parameters for all parts on link or unlink
[11:46 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So I can follow why the ticket was made as it would seem the current code is designed to already handle this in a way that doesn't change the parameters of individual parts, simply pulling from whatever the root part is so why linking or unlinking changing them is definitely odd
[11:46 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm aware there are changes on the horizon regarding that
[11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yes i know where they are current stored..
[11:49 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and i say again.. those need to be reset to a safe value on link, becaur the history of the new root part is unknown, such information on that is unreliable
[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( ofc some part of older code may be not doing that, but should )
[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not even going into implications on permissions etc..
[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: what sl does is sl problem
[11:53 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Linking two objects that are for sale to a new root part that isn't and then unlinking them again, as they say, breaks the sale parameters. Looking at the sog link code I can't see anything that specifically resets those parameters so it must be part of a bigger reset that assumes some defaults and only carries over the safe parts?
[11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh not going to dive on code now
[11:55 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:56 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Just under five minutes left in todays gathering. Any last minute items for today?
[11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: just telling that those things may not survive a relink
[11:58 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Thanks. Gotta go, next meeting.
[11:58 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. Thanks for dropping by.
[12:00 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour which brings this gathering to a close. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[19:00 UTC] *** Logging stopped. ***
[18:00 UTC] *** Logging started. ***
[11:00 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello
[11:03 AM PT] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: hi
[11:03 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga.
[11:03 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: hi :
[11:04 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: welcome
[11:04 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: what news do you bring ?
[11:05 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: No news is good news? ;)
[11:05 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: we're being attacked by a band of dinos
[11:06 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh it is only one
[11:06 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The new viewers sucks
[11:06 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Someone seems to be on vacation. I don't see any signs of code changes this past week.
[11:06 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and he is kinda blind, missed us
[11:06 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: That dino didn't used to come through the building.
[11:07 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The code monkeys got high on bananas
[11:08 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: (/me takes note: buy more bananas )
[11:08 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm still getting a sporadic HTTP connection that kills the dotnet HTTP server. Set my logging to level 6 last week but it hasn't happened again so far. Will report if I fond out anything new.
[11:08 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ok, ty
[11:09 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I even get that with local standalone into my network from some random IPs, the internet is full of robots and viruses as of late
[11:10 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 grins
[11:11 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The queryable metaverse has crested over 100000 regions and 63000 residents from 166 grids I have data for
[11:13 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: That's isn't a large number of residents for that many grids.
[11:13 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is no deduplication so it may even be less people
[11:14 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:14 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A more accurate datapoint would be the download numbers of Firestorm and other viewers, but we don't have that data
[11:16 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Did some housekeeping on mantis the other day, but still a bunch of tickets to examine
[11:18 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ty, Vincent.
[11:20 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I sent some reminders to FS regarding the script syntax thing and the stupid timezone nonsense, but so far no commits to address those things, so will just continue waiting
[11:20 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Digging into that code not really high up on my list of things I'd want to do
[11:21 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The summer hole has a lot of people just chillin :)
[11:23 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:25 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Not sure we have that much to talk about today. Any upcoming events we should mention?
[11:26 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Not that I can think of..we start planning the OpenSimulator Community Conference in August and open the Call for Proposals in September - October
[11:26 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Everyone is welcome to share grid, community, research, business, entertainment, and creativity topics of interest
[11:27 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: thanks *smiles*
[11:27 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hard to believe we aren't far off from the start of August.
[11:27 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I know...time flies *grins*
[11:28 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Wishing you all a lovely week... summer here
[11:31 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was hoping to share some updates on my attempts fixing some of the diva wifi nonsense, but have yet to hear back from the person that wanted to test those things, maybe next week... or month
[11:32 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: testng account creation using diva wifi is not that arduous. Are you using a different interface and system for it?
[11:32 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Vincent. Let us know when you have any more news on that front.
[11:32 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 pokes the bear gently and grins
[11:33 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks grins at Lyr
[11:33 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: what dino got a bear friend here?
[11:33 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hehe
[11:33 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I just couldn't be bothered setting it up locally, I just rewrote some parts and threw the code at them to test, waiting to hear if it even compiles xD
[11:33 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: For those reading the minutes, Kayaker's Dino is a Core Dev testing favorite
[11:33 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: ah ok, gotcha
[11:34 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: *smiles*
[11:34 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I know I have WiFi installed. Not sure if I have the Diva WiFi installed
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not exactly that kind of wifi
[11:35 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: easy to tell. Ours had the words divia wifi on the icon when we use it to generate accounts for classes and customize them
[11:35 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, just what it was called on our interface
[11:35 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I thought it stood for "Web Interface For Idiots"
[11:36 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hehe and a ray of sunshine appears *grins*
[11:36 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:36 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hm... I may have it installed but haven't used it in some time.
[11:38 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Unfortunately the only other web interface that looked decent seems to have vanished, Kubwa nuked pretty much all his stuff it seems
[11:38 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There are still some grids using it though
[11:39 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I wonder why he removed
[11:39 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, which one is that? I don't recall hearing of another one. How long ago did it disappear?
[11:41 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd say maybe this year or last year maybe, I didn't track that any closer. It looked decent enough at least and most that used it also had their grids setup properly so it was a good indicator of that
[11:41 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Kubwa wrote it. I recall at one point he was selling a license for it as well, but then I saw it was just available for download before just vanishing entirely
[11:43 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure how good the code in it is, but I would think anyone building something to replace wifi wouldn't make the same mistakes
[11:43 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: It might have wound up in an archive somewhere.
[11:44 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I already tried wayback, but couldn't find anything resembling a repo or download
[11:44 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Tempted to write him an email or ask one of the grids still using it
[11:45 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There aren't that many options out there. Most of them either don't work or make a mess of the backend
[11:45 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:46 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I played around a bit with wifi (not the Diva one). That code is a bit of a mess.
[11:47 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Turning theory into code 1 to 1 is sometimes not the best idea, especially if the theory is pretty esoteric
[11:47 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Lots of the things that have exploded over the years the git blame returns the same few names
[11:49 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: This just made me think of some other project(s). Haven't heard anything much about some of the other viewer alternative projects that were using a new code base. I think there was one using Unity(?).
[11:49 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Crystal or whatever it was
[11:50 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I think there are at least 2, Joe's sharpview viewer, and one other dev was here recently with another
[11:51 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not ujnity though
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: gavins works on dayturn
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: gavin
[11:51 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Joe's uses Vulkan which is way cool, but more work
[11:51 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Last update on their patreon says Jan 17th, seemingly had some mesh stuff implemented at that point, CrystalFrostViewer is what it is called
[11:51 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavins work doesn't use Unit, IIRC.
[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: neither does joe viewer
[11:53 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not sure of that unity viewer even did support opensim
[11:54 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://github.com/JennaScvl/CrystalFrost-Public Apparently open source now, at least in part
[11:54 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: There was one that used Unity that got as far as rendering a static scene.
[11:54 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's that one
[11:55 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: it does mention opensim wel open sim :)
[11:55 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: On a separate topic, I was reading in Discord ZenDrako's comment about an undocumented scripting option using "x = expr ? true : false;" I can use that. Is it safe to assume support for that will remain?
[11:56 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Is that in Y
[11:56 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes apparently
[11:57 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A lot of the xmr specific things have been left in there
[11:57 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There used to be more documentation out there, but that has vanished when the domain it was on expired
[11:57 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Though I am not sure if that was part of it
[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ewll not much gain on using that
[11:58 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: fewer lines or programming
[11:58 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: of*
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: even c# that just ends up on a normal if
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess only oc cpp it that do jumpless code on special cases
[11:59 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: For compatibility or public things would stick to plain LSL as best as possible, for everything else you can happily go nuts
[11:59 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and on some cpus that have conditional instrutions on moce etc
[11:59 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: .. on move...
[11:59 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: wonder if SL lsl supports it
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc not
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and that is pretty dead
[12:00 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you for a great meeting. *smiles* Must dash
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: they are moving to their lua version
[12:00 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Don't give them any ideas they might come up with their own shitty version
[12:00 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: smiles and waves to Lyr
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: lyr :)
[12:02 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There are some things in there that are definitely less cpu heavy, but those dark arts are best left alone
[12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well i dont remember if Y has that
[12:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: if it did ans was safe, i would had add it when i added the other options like case
[12:05 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Evidently it compiles that
[12:06 PM PT] Object: Script running
[12:06 PM PT] Object: yes
[12:06 PM PT] Object: no
[12:06 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Appears to work properly as well
[12:07 PM PT] Object: Script running
[12:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: nice
[12:07 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But yeah is just more syntax sugar ultimately being just if else blocks much like switch case
[12:08 PM PT] Object: Script running 1
[12:08 PM PT] Object: Script running 0
[12:08 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I recall there were a few such things that carried over from xmr, but not all of that is or was documented
[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeap i left some there
[12:10 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The other thing it does is the context-aware variables that somehow work even though they probably shouldn't
[12:10 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Another reason to go digging in to the web archive to see of the hold docs can be found that we could use.
[12:10 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: wayback machine?
[12:11 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah
[12:11 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: treasure trove
[12:11 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was gonna put that on the wiki mirror as to not pollute the main one
[12:12 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Problem is that only has the page not the source so would need to rewrite all the markdown and I just... well I'm lazy
[12:13 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: just use
[12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeap it is there and always active
[12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( i mean // ? : )
[12:14 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: going to play with it this week
[12:15 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: All the sugar gets so confusing in C# lately
[12:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel that is a old construct even from c
[12:16 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you go code blind enough you might write it as literal true false bool xD
[12:18 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:18 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Any last minute items for today?
[12:19 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks hears crickets
[12:19 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks grins
[12:20 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: That will do it for another week. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[19:20 UTC] *** Logging stopped. ***
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[11:01 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Just waiting for a moment or two to see if Lyr will be joining us.
[11:03 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I had hoped to finally be able to report on the wifi problems, but the testers has gone on vacation so will have to wait some more for that feedback
[11:04 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: np, Vincent.
[11:05 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't see any code changes for this past week so there is nothing to talk about on that front. Someone else must be on vacation. :)
[11:06 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:06 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ubit is hiding cause he knows what's coming, code review of everything I have in the pipeline xD
[11:07 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga
[11:07 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hio
[11:07 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Started the other day on doing some review on some of the older things to clean them up, it's not fun
[11:07 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello Andrew, Vincent, and Cuga, Hi Joe, Jagga, and Ubit!
[11:08 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr.
[11:08 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 chuckles
[11:09 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Some RL work has me occupied and not able to work on other projects at this tiem.
[11:09 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's summer anyways, too warm to think heh
[11:09 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cocktail and hammock season
[11:10 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, it has been pretty toasty outside for about the past 16 days.
[11:10 AM PT] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm wearing a parka at night
[11:11 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh yeah seems grounded 2 is full of bugs
[11:11 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: grounded 2?
[11:12 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The only big thing that happened over the past week has been on political side of things potentially affecting OpenSim in the UK due to new regulations regarding adult content of online platforms, but that's not really a development topic
[11:13 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: At least its not some new bit of nonsense from POTUS
[11:15 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: What else do we have to talk about today?
[11:15 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess adult issues is more a grids side issue
[11:15 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Joe, had the chance to test mixed region size yet?
[11:15 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think I left those regions on autostart so they should still be there
[11:16 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Oh, in Sharpview? New version is out. https://www.animats.com/sharpview/releases/release-0.12.0.html
[11:16 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Does impostors, but none have been created for SL yet.
[11:16 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Sorry,. for OS. SL has a few impostors preloaded.
[11:16 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Next stage is to figure out impostor-making.
[11:17 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have some proof of concept style code for that, way for you to request a region by position via public grid connector and regions reporting their heightmap as raw bytes
[11:18 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That combined with the maptile from robust should at least give you basic terrain
[11:18 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Heightmap as raw bytes would be useful. Espeically if you don't have to go to the region to get its data.
[11:19 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's all a bit of a hack at the moment, because I did not want to create a whole different service connector for get_region_by_position on the public side so I just stuffed it into the grid info thing
[11:20 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That returns you enough data to establish a connection to the region and ask it for the heightmap though
[11:21 AM PT] Joe Magarac: OK. Talk details later. nagle@animats.com
[11:22 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You said you wanted to test different sized var regions though just in terms of whether they would work or not. I did setup some regions for that on ZW a couple weeks ago called Bad Idea
[11:22 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: To my surprised at some point Firestorm seems to have made handling of that a bit less prone to crash as well, though I still wouldn't recommend such setups
[11:22 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I don't have ZetaWorlds support yet. Just OS Grid and Kietely's landing area.
[11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well you are suposed to go to a region to get geta data from it
[11:23 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's mainline OpenSim code, if you have osg supported so should ZW essentially
[11:23 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: to have things open without any credentials checks is kinda bad karma
[11:23 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Right, OS is more restricrive about asset acccess than SL.
[11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and heighmaps may be considered to have copy rights
[11:24 AM PT] Joe Magarac: So this will need a bot to visit each region.
[11:24 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: What do you mean by different size regions? Ones of differing sizes being up against each other or ones that are not a multiple of 256m on a side?
[11:25 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://zetaworlds.com/map?x=5401
[11:25 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Again, wouldn't recommend doing that, it might crash randomly
[11:26 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Actually, the main limitation I have is that objects used as impostors have to have their assets accessible from any regoin you can go to without teleporting.
[11:26 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Vehicles have the same restriction. If you drive to another region, people must be able to see your car.
[11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess regions should cook own impostors like they do map
[11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( and map is a public asset )
[11:27 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's a lot of cpu resources though
[11:28 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah a bit more than map :)
[11:28 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Storing that on assets is also not good, maptiles already make a mess there, now add mesh... nah
[11:28 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I'd hold off on this for OS for now. I want to talk the other viewer people into supporting this.
[11:29 AM PT] Joe Magarac: The LL people like this thing and it might go into the Linden viewer.
[11:29 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Then firestorm.
[11:29 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most connected lands tend to be var regions anyways, so with child agents you might find yourself in the center of 9 square kilometers of terrain as is, that's quite heavy on rendering all that terrain as is
[11:30 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Add impostor mesh on top of that, not sure how well that would run in FS
[11:30 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Overhead is about 80 LI for the entire SL grid.
[11:30 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: they liked the idea of a bot scanning the region with raycasts every half meter?
[11:31 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I have something like that now.
[11:31 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Needs a lot more work.
[11:31 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I'm trying to recruit a major bot operator.
[11:31 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: As module with a custom endpoint provided to viewers that could work, but not really as core part, not when you want to have mesh assets of all of that
[11:32 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Basically, I request the mesh for a mesh UUID. and some textures.
[11:33 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I just need to be able to do that for regions outside of draw range but reachable by region crossing.
[11:33 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that is only 1st neib..
[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: in fact on opensim you can "cross"to regions on the other side of map
[11:34 AM PT] Joe Magarac: What happens if I take a vehicle for a road trip in OS? The vehicle is a long way from the region where it was rezzed.
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but well that is a undoc feature of osbjectteleport
[11:35 AM PT] Joe Magarac: How does a looker far from the rez point get the vehicle's mesh?
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: its official use is within same region
[11:35 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Through the neighbor service they have a presence on that region and request the data from that directly, but that will not work for regions they do not have a child agent on
[11:35 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Or the regions share an asset server?
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not if outside view range
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The regions are the asset server(s)
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They act like an in between proxy for it
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: asset service is same on a grid
[11:36 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Huh. I've done road trips in OS. Got across about 10 regions.
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A viewer cannot directly talk to it, because of localized assets only present on the region
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( we are not talking HG on this )
[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm im lost you talking a mess
[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: normal regions crossings..
[11:37 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think for what you want to do perhaps a full module might be the best approach. Modules have access to private side of the connectors so you can talk to the grid and request regions by position, fetch meshes and textures from them etc.
[11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yes there are no connections if outside view range.. but them also no crossings
[11:38 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I need to do some road trips and test.
[11:38 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I thought OS could do this.
[11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so to see any region outside view range is kinda.. odd
[11:38 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Let me get back to all of you on this. I need to test more.
[11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: when a avatar moves into view range.. it is told to connect oo the other regions
[11:39 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Right, I know that.
[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and all it shows is what it gets from that region as child agent
[11:39 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think I mentioned that before you can use the viewer asset caps in OpenSim too, but you'd have to figure out some fallback to local region assets for anything that isn't found or somehow detect which assets associated with objects happen to be dynamic textures
[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well i dont see why out of view range is a thing
[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: out of view range should mean that... not there...
[11:40 AM PT] Joe Magarac: As a practical matter, do the big grids, OSGRid and ZetaWorlds use a common asset server?
[11:40 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes
[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: it irritakes me that there is no view range on local terrain
[11:41 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Then this will work for the big grids.
[11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: each grid as a assets service
[11:41 AM PT] Joe Magarac: That works for me.
[11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: has even
[11:42 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: you just interact with it via region caps... not CDN like things
[11:42 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( well a region can tell you to use a CDN thing )
[11:42 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Right. Region gives you a cap for fetching meshes and textures, which can be any URL.
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but why talk abotu impostors on regions outside view range?
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: os regions can be 4km wide.. possible 8
[11:43 AM PT] Joe Magarac: So you can see mountains in the distance.
[11:43 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Fly around and see a runway far away.
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: on that ouside view range MUST mean that
[11:44 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Beyond normal view range, you see impostors, if avaiablle.
[11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: even RL has a max view range
[11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:44 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Like this https://www.animats.com/sharpview/technotes/assets/blakeseagood1.png
[11:45 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Tech note: https://www.animats.com/sharpview/technotes/impostor.html
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: pout nasty paterns on water
[11:46 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Those will become 3D models.
[11:46 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Like this: https://www.animats.com/sharpview/technotes/assets/lookatimpostorcampion1024.png
[11:46 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: For how complex this gets and since you want to run raycast like things perhaps the best option is a module. OpenSim can load modules from dll so you could publish a impostor.dll containing code that provides the viewer with endpoints to call such as region_ip:publicport/get_impostors which internally would ask the region to seek around itself for regions and request impostors from them if they have any available
[11:46 AM PT] Joe Magarac: The green peak is an impostor.
[11:47 AM PT] Joe Magarac: This may not take server side support at all. It doesn't in SL.
[11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh why not a sculpt? :)
[11:47 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Maybe a cap to tell viewers where to find the impostor database.
[11:47 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Because you can't mesh-reduce a sculpt.
[11:48 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Sculpts are kind of retro.
[11:48 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Centrally storing them on assets is not going to work in OpenSim, because you have region operators from all over and the asset systems aren't meant for "updates" like that so you'd be spamming it with meshes
[11:49 AM PT] Joe Magarac: I figure on updating once a week, only if the terrain changed significantly.
[11:50 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Will need to diff height maps.
[11:51 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Frankly, this is mostly for SL, with its huge mainland. OS tends to be more small and medium sized estates. But I will support OS.
[11:52 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Anyway, thanks. Gotta go, next meeting.
[11:52 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm just proposing a way to handle creation of them without any impact for the grid side, which already has enough garbage collecting in the database and assets
[11:52 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. See you again next week.
[11:54 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Almost the top of the hour. Any last minute item for today?
[11:55 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Just wanted to mention, the HTTP kill-request Ive been reporting, the dotnet logging doesn;t help. I'll need to use a proxy server to catch it
[11:55 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It happened again with log level 6, but logged nothing
[11:55 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Interesting
[11:56 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Would have bet money that it would log at least something
[11:56 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: nope nothing
[11:56 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's telling though, it must be something happening at higher levels of establishing connection then
[11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: region log happens already at high level
[11:56 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Malicious headers or return addresses
[11:57 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: it happens maybe once a week on the average, sometimes 2x a week, sometimes once a month, no regularity
[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: no help on lower level protocol issues
[11:57 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The http server dies but Opensim does not detect. All inbound connections fail after this, but Opensim thinks everything is fine
[11:57 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So requires manual restart
[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: try to get a snap of the data that causes teh issues
[11:58 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: right
[11:58 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thats what I'll try with proxy server
[11:58 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wait so it doesn't crash the application, just hangs the http server?
[11:58 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: correct
[11:58 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and then when I shut down OS, when it gets to the troubled thread, shutdown just hangs
[11:59 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: First thing that comes to mind there would be a looping redirect of some sort
[11:59 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: *shrugs*
[11:59 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'll see if I can capture something
[11:59 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Setup a honeypot webserver on the same port and log everything for a week
[12:00 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: well its the OS HTTP server
[12:00 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: dotnet
[12:00 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: nginx or haproxy if you still wanna get to your grid, access log should have the connections so if you then notice it failing you can correlate
[12:01 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes, with aproxy server I can correlate with timestamp
[12:01 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not a big deal as it only happens every week to two
[12:01 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thats all I had today
[12:01 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well to find why and fix would be nice
[12:01 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I see lots of random traffic that I cannot even really work out where it comes from, but it's usually either bots probing for open things or seemingly spurious bits floating around
[12:01 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes
[12:02 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Definitely an annoying problem to track down.
[12:02 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Even on local standalone I see my AV spring up saying it blocked some connection
[12:02 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you for a great meeting! Must dash *waves*
[12:03 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Alternative would be adding some log output directly in code to capture things better
[12:03 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Combined with an external script to test every few minutes if http is still alive
[12:03 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Lyr. Have a good weekend and week.See you next Tuesday.
[12:03 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 waves and grins
[12:04 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the external script is something Im planning tp add, it will send me an email when down
[12:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: it may be a deep dotnet issue.. no idea
[12:04 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Suspect may need some things like max redirect or similar safeguards added somewhere
[12:04 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Question is where...
[12:05 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the error message itself might give clues
[12:05 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ok rl calls
[12:05 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I can send you on IRC
[12:05 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: cy anext week or before..
[12:05 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Ubit. See you next week.
[12:05 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to go too
[12:05 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Cuga.
[12:05 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah, try to capture the IP address as well, poke me on discord when you get something, I have a few probe tools of my own
[12:05 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok sounds good
[12:06 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Time to wrap up todays gathering before everyone leaves. :)
[12:06 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:06 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: *waves and poofs
[12:06 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: There. That makes it official.
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[11:01 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02 AM PT] Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: hihi Andrew
[11:05 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *smiles*
[11:05 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr.
[11:07 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: great to see you
[11:09 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If we are all very quiet we might be able to hear the rattling of the gears in Ubit's head pondering the quirks of YEngine :)
[11:09 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 chuckles
[11:09 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:09 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: that has to be Vincent,
[11:09 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I'm multi tasking as usual *grins*
[11:09 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Better gear rattling then crickets, I look at that code and my brain just commits sudoku
[11:10 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Later this month, we'll begin working on OSCC and we're setting the dates for a weekend in December
[11:10 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hehe
[11:10 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Sudoku, eh?
[11:11 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: *smiles*
[11:11 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I guess, I don't actually know how that works, me no good with the numbers
[11:11 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: well, it is much better than seppuku
[11:11 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: love sudoku, but then, love logic problems and retrograde analysis in chess
[11:12 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Lots of fixes this week
[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: love uses sodoku books... all solved
[11:12 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 laughs
[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: *used*
[11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well about code changes.. yes there where few, one just pushed now :)
[11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: got another report about issues with http server, so did some split of the try catch in the area to pin point the location a bit better
[11:15 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: also made them ignore some errors, keeping http accept active until told do die
[11:15 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Right now I remember we had some deadlocks reported with that
[11:16 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: vicent did report a issue on accounting of heap usage on yengine
[11:17 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: those where on handling of events arguments, so made a few changes on that... last just a bit ago ( mantis 9211 )
[11:17 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel and that was it.. not much
[11:18 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Mesh uploads had some code changes to modernize the texture assignments and add some sane defaults to it
[11:18 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Though I do have to say mesh should follow good practice and collada standards else results can be unpredictable
[11:19 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh there was that also
[11:19 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Relying on safety rails is not good practice, certainty over defaults
[11:20 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: improved the decode of faces textures in same cases.
[11:21 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In most game engines everything has to have a texture even if just a blank one in order to render lighting properly so just assigning a color is not proper. Code now handles that a bit more gracefully
[11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: just color should be fine
[11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: if that is all you need
[11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but ofc ppl love to complicate things..
[11:23 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In many older game engines that don't have sanity checks you wouldn't get proper lighting on those, it just all look like full bright all the time or you'd get no shadows rendered on the surface
[11:23 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Nowadays game engines have so many safety rails you can stuff the most unoptimized mess into them and despite the framerate you'd be none the wiser
[11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and and pay the electric power bill
[11:24 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Keep SSD manufacturers in business as well
[11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: think same games now have TB of data to get them all
[11:25 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm enshrouded dev tools to make mods ? think those are TB
[11:27 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I got a report today from FS that apparently someone managed to associate a outfit folder with a thumbnail, but in testing seems that would always return an error. Not sure how that person managed to do it. I think we don't have any of that implemented, not even partially right?
[11:28 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: inventory code viewers use for us (udp) do no support the entry for thimbs
[11:28 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i did most of the code for them.. them... Duhhh moment bc of that
[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: as soon we see ll no longer uses lludp we can change the protocol adding that entry
[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: llusp for inventory i mean
[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: lludp also
[11:30 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: From the report it seems the viewer somehow still allowed assignment and cached the "result" locally, but of course the server side can't mirror it so after relog it would disappear again
[11:30 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Trying that though should return an error, not sure how they bypassed that
[11:30 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: viewers to them for textures..
[11:30 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: do
[11:31 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well default ones
[11:31 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh not doing anymore ?\
[11:32 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ahh we need to hover the mouse for a while
[11:32 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah that works cause the asset is all it needs, but for the outfit assignment it should error out, somehow that user managed to not get an error even though the cap is not available
[11:33 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Really strange thing and I got no further info unfortunately as the issue is privated
[11:34 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Such a silly system frankly. Wasn't a problem for almost two decades and suddenly gets added
[11:34 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The texture preview sure, but thumbnails.... ugh
[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well like RGB leds on pc closed boxes
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: what a absurd to have those on ram etc
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but.. hard to get ram without them sometimes
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: or fans
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: some ppl love useless things
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Shiny useless things
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At least the pretty ram usually comes with actual heat spreaders so at least it does that
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i was forced to add a LED to a product once
[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: a product without a shining led does not sell
[11:38 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: One day we'll have edible LEDs...
[11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( they wanted it to blink also.. but seen my face and didn-t ask for that )
[11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: good it was before RGB leds..
[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well looking to my keyboard leds all over.. jezz )
[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: who decided that a keyboard needs shinning leds on all keys ??
[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: jezzz
[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and 3 bottons to change how they shine
[11:41 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did leave my local test standalone running when cuga last reported issues with external things killing his http server. I did collect a few attackers looking for open ports and such things, mostly port scanners and vulnerability scanners. Only briefly checked server logs for those. If they send random bytes I could see that somehow bricking things or if they are sending looping redirects
[11:41 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I suspect cuga will catch the problematic thing at some point, just a matter of time
[11:42 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Looking generally into server logs I do see a lot of crawlers attempting to hack into wordpress and joomla installs via known vulnerable parts. Scanning for git repos, databases etc. Not always with the intention to get those holes patched
[11:44 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most of those seem known that when you look their IP up the abuse reports are plentiful. It's the ones without reports that are the potentially really dangerous ones
[11:45 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: My biggest worry is that even if we figure out what it is, that it might be something that hints at other potential vectors. Adding tons of checks into the system will slow it down though and http isn't the fastest to begin with
[11:47 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Best advice is still to use a proxy in front of it, which should filter some of the bogus things out when they don't constitute a valid request in the first place, but even that is not universal
[11:48 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Given there is no threadfunc error or watchdog seeing it break it must be something that keeps the thread running and just endlessly busy
[11:49 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i got reports that did had logs
[11:49 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I tried to replicate the problem adding a infinite loop into it, but even that didn't stop it from accepting new connections
[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: messages like 'An existing connection was forcibly closed by the remote host'
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: we have a catch that does kill the accept loop in case of unknown exception
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and that was unknown
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well un handled
[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i made code ignoe some on commit a few hours ago
[11:53 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah I saw, but I am not sure if that resolves all cases. Then again normally those things have their own internal safeties which should be kicking in
[11:53 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Something funky going on the internet
[11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: isn't funky part of internet spec ?
[11:55 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah but I liked it better when that manifested in memes and other silly things, not constant hunting for unpatched CVE's
[11:57 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'll go through some more logs and see if I can find some IPs that don't match users, maybe one of them is known for sending bullshit data to random servers
[11:58 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Is already pretty sad when a normal firewall has 15000 entries of some 200000 IPs just to shut the worst offenders out
[11:59 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Outside of threads crashing we also don't really have a good way to forcefully stop and create new ones either since Thread.Abort is to be deprecated
[12:00 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting. Thanks.
[12:00 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The replacement for that I wouldn't exactly trust to nuke an actual stuck thread
[12:01 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In other news 177 grids I can now fetch stats from, getting close to half the known metaverse
[12:11 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: (sorry, I've been on a work related call)
[12:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: rl calls
[12:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: see you next week, if not before, have fun
[12:17 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Sorry that I was somewhat unavailable after all today.
[12:17 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:18 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: log posted
[12:25 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ty, Vincent.
[12:39 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I need to have my lunch and get back to some work stuff. Nice seeing everyone. Sorry I wasn't able to participate today. See you next week.
[12:39 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks waves
[12:40 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 waves and poofs
[10:02 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: plöp
[10:31 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hi
[10:41 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: hey
[10:52 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Universities continue to befuddle me with how many incompetent people seem to be in their employment. Today the folding@home project had problems because one of their servers ran out of space, apparently no one monitors them
[11:01 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:03 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:04 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great to see you
[11:04 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I'm moving a little slow today.. juggling classes
[11:04 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not chainsaws?
[11:04 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 pats the dino
[11:05 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:05 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Gavin! :D
[11:06 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:06 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi everyone
[11:06 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:06 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Gavin.
[11:06 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It has been a busy summer, How have you all been=?
[11:06 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Busy. :)
[11:06 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sun is certainly busy shining
[11:08 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No commits this week, it's been too warm to code xD
[11:08 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Heya Gavin!
[11:09 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:09 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Lyr
[11:09 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i do have a intel 13gen.. cant overheat it
[11:09 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great to see you
[11:10 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you too
[11:11 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we're discussing dates for OSCC and open to ideas for this year's conference -- let me know if you have anything that you'd like to see or cover *smiles*
[11:11 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Community conference
[11:12 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: my goal is more awareness about opensim...increased involvement and use, sharing and using these amazing spaces to promote better ways of learning online
[11:13 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: That is a good goal to have.
[11:14 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we know how immersive experiences are memorable.. and great ways to simulate experiences, but also were a lifeline during Covid.
[11:14 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Our community is thankful for your hard work... even when the sun is hot... we keep cool
[11:16 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: last week of classes for one of my schools, so do not mind me if I multi task *grins*
[11:16 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Any plans to update the code running the OSCC grid before the event?
[11:16 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: But think about what you would enjoy in a community gathering..anything of interest to you? And let me know ...
[11:16 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we had plans, but we had a few technical dependencies
[11:17 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Crista has been busy and we use a tool she supports
[11:17 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok.
[11:17 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we are also tied to certain resources... it's like dominos... lining them up to balance everything *grins*
[11:18 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we checked into it months ago, Andrew, as that is a great question
[11:18 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: *looks around* Not like we got anybody with experience around to help, ah well
[11:19 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: when we create avatar accounts for the conference, we sometimes need many of them and fast... the two days before the conference is a flurry of activity
[11:19 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: *chuckles*
[11:20 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: well change is welcome, but never easy, Vincent... as we want everyone to have a great conference -- but also to keep it going smoothly.
[11:20 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Lucky that old viewers still available, how long that will last who knows
[11:21 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: it is a good point
[11:21 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I hear rumblings through the grapevine of more nonsense cooking up at LL so brace for impact
[11:21 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: such as Vincent?
[11:22 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That recent brainfart of forcefully changing view distance being one, but there is more
[11:22 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: what do we want to see for our community going forward.. the viewer is how we see and experience the world. The Core code drives everything... and the grids and their content provides the heart that balances the worlds we love and the beauty and power within them.
[11:22 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I can see that coming to "improve the user experience" of course
[11:23 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It would seem there is some sort of deadline for getting something presentable so lots of untested things being pushed through
[11:23 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 smiles
[11:23 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A lot of the half baked stuff hasn't seen any fixes in a month or so either
[11:24 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We need something that sustains our spirits, too...feeds the fire, and helps stir the imagination..
[11:24 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Aww, Vincent, I wouldn't refer to your work as half baked...
[11:24 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 teases and grins
[11:24 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: We keep each other vibrant
[11:24 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Would be more accurate at the moment given I feel like an oven potato
[11:25 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: we need change requests, new ideas, and joy
[11:25 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: it is hard to think when you are cookin' at the computer. We get it.
[11:25 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In OpenSim perhaps, but LL needs to stop fucking around with things and finish their damn homework
[11:25 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: no they have sped through the glTF functionality and that is only half baked
[11:26 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I guess we will see a default Unity based viewer very soon
[11:26 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: *nods* I expect the pressure there is to bridge with content across a broader community than SL or Opensim
[11:26 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: they added gltf object import
[11:26 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well kinda
[11:26 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: the scene import thing seems delayed
[11:27 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes, would allow them to take advantage of other 3D marketplaces of content... and for residents to sell in them ...
[11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so it is only added glft to collada supported input formats
[11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: seems working on fs beta
[11:27 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 slips away for a moment
[11:28 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Great more junk from the internet that was made by folks that just bashed their fists on the keyboard until a model plopped out
[11:28 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes Lyr, but possibly for distributing a viewer on other platforms
[11:28 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: just material is only imported still
[11:28 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: we need to upload the material from the same gltf file
[11:28 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks grins at Vincent
[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm there is a allow control fo rmesh uploads
[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: we always allow
[11:29 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: seems like Google demonstrated a completely navigable AI generated 3D space a few days ago
[11:30 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ll demands users to tell they will respect a few rules
[11:30 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: on user profile web site
[11:30 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: we do have the cap
[11:31 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what rules Ubit?
[11:31 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: like respect of author rights
[11:31 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good luck with that for AI generated stuff
[11:32 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well htat is user problem
[11:32 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: "It's not theft if you use it to train an ai"
[11:32 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: of course not
[11:32 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ai now also forces you to accept rules avout that
[11:32 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ai things
[11:33 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is a massive class action coming up over that in the US
[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: thiunk ms made changes to lics a few days ago to pass the responsability to users of ai
[11:34 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but the users didn't train the models
[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: like telliong that their ai my return things under copyright, and it is you job to know and avoitd ity
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: fun
[11:35 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Meanwhile the weather forecast is still useless, when's ai gonna fix the real problems instead of creating more self-serving egotistical slop for people
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Akin to inventing the wheel and then only using it for a tire swing
[11:37 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In other news the instand message protocol changed as well
[11:37 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It now has a version that delivers options used for a lsl function
[11:38 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Will require changes to the packet most likely so libomv
[11:38 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not a huge priority at the moment, the lsl function is not that useful
[11:39 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: something different than llInstantMessage?
[11:39 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's still mostly the same just seems to add a few bytes for options to the end to transmit a request to place the teleport beacon somewhere
[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm didnt notice those changes
[11:40 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: update of the same lsl function or a new one?
[11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: anyway messages are working
[11:41 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/LlMapBeacon
[11:41 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh... ty
[11:42 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The mapdestination function already works as it sends a specific request type packet to the viewer instead, but this function appears to use instant message instead
[11:42 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm and who cares abotu that?
[11:43 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: lsl feature parity mostly, but it does make me wonder if they extend those message options further or if this will just remain a hack to get this function to work
[11:43 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: History would suggest the latter, but even blind chickens find a corn once in a while
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: lsl parity is not a thing when we do not care about a feature
[11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ie experiences for example
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: anyway ill look
[11:46 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We do have the mapdestination thing which kinda works the same, just force opens the map every time, seems to be the only difference I can see
[11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well looking to the function names seems who made that was thinking that was a teleport
[11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: "SendScriptTeleportRequest"
[11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and see no relation with instantemessage
[11:49 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm th ell packet used on the map thing also as teleport on name
[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: has even
[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well will look
[11:51 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'll send you what tj sent me looking into the viewer side think that'll make it easier to figure out
[11:52 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's changes to libomv as well as far as I can tell so low priority anyways
[11:53 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was gonna convert the packet to bytes and just frankenstein it on there, but that's a bit silly even for me
[11:53 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeap i see it
[11:53 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: they added a Options field
[11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well ill look
[11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not a major feature
[11:54 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah just felt I should mention since I stumbled across that recently
[11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ty
[11:55 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Five minutes left in the hour already. Time flies. Any other questions/comments for today?
[11:56 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: nothing here
[11:57 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I went through logs the other day and found a few more grids, added them to my list and now see nearly 200 grids running dev code reporting stats, over 400 grids reported as available and online
[11:58 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That nonsense from the UK forcing platforms like OpenSim to verify user age apparently has seen more backlash, so maybe, hopefully, some of that will be changed
[11:59 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: wikipedia just list the lawsuit
[11:59 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so they will be forced to
[11:59 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lost*
[11:59 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: That is a lot of grids all needing users. How do your figures compare to the ones from Hypergrid Business website (if that is still going)?
[11:59 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I guess that sets presendent
[12:00 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The EU supposedly is looking to do something similar, which just isn't rooted in reality imo, but yeah we'll see how this turns out, hopefully logic prevails
[12:00 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: hgb doesn't do stats anymore, they haven't posted anything in over a month either
[12:00 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Think that's pretty much dead at this point
[12:01 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I only look at what has connected and some other sources that reported grids, those are checked, I don't actively receive information about new things though
[12:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I thought I had read something about stopping the stats.
[12:01 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I would imagine I got about 80% of the metaverse recorded
[12:02 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Some of the missing stuff might not even be online anymore so adding it makes little sense
[12:02 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Already have thousands that have been offline
[12:04 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[12:08 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks for collecting that information, Vincent. Must be a lot of work.
[12:08 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's no big deal, mostly automated at this point
[12:10 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: OK guys, I have to retreat to RL
[12:10 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: see you next week
[12:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh me 2
[12:11 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Good to see you, Gavin.
[12:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: cya all next week if not before :)
[12:11 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I also need to go RL. Take care everyone, see you soon
[12:11 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing further for today I will call this gathering to a close.
[12:11 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. ee you again next week.
[19:11 UTC] *** Logging stopped. ***
[18:11 UTC] *** Logging started. ***
[11:11 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well welcome :)
[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: about last week code changes
[11:12 AM PT] orbert tatham: The row boat I just rezzed matches correctly
[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah somethign sttrage on that previus owner transmission on HG
[11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well on new code i did add a few lsl things
[11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: llmapbeacon
[11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: llGetRenderMaterial
[11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: llIsLinkGLTFMaterial
[11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and llWorldPosToHUD
[11:15 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: also some fix for mantis 9212
[11:16 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofter tp was not working between 2 regions on diferent instances if target was in view range
[11:16 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 9213 also fixed when some code came back from vacation
[11:17 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ald made ubODE teh default physics engine on the ini files
[11:17 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: hurray
[11:17 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ahh yes.. also a fix for 9213
[11:19 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: for the record before the start of log, Obert was reporting some issue with pims last ower on HG
[11:19 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: it somehow guests changed...
[11:19 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: err gets!
[11:20 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel mb regions are as good as me typing..
[11:20 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Only thing that really stores last owner is prims on region, inventory doesn't and neither does asset data, so that part is mostly down to the transfer
[11:23 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: lastowner is stored on all the above
[11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm at most see a option to store uuid zero on oars
[11:24 AM PT] orbert tatham: It the prim has one set of data in OSGrid's Asset database and a different set of data in the other grid's database, would the OSGrid set override the on where it came from when I rez it here?
[11:25 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: no idea need to look
[11:25 AM PT] orbert tatham: What I am wondering is if the asset/uuid is in the OSGrid database and the same uuid is in AMV database, I got the item in AMV but rezzed it here
[11:26 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel all code assumes uuids are unique across the universe
[11:26 AM PT] orbert tatham: That wouold make sense of things
[11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that is a hg limitation
[11:27 AM PT] orbert tatham: Agreed
[11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but you said that on original grid that example uuid was 8... and not it is 7...
[11:28 AM PT] orbert tatham: yes - e8... originally, and 75... now
[11:35 AM PT] orbert tatham: When you rez something out of inventory, it hanges the group on it to math where you are rezzing it. ould the rezz ode also be pulling the "previous owner" field out of the OSGrid database instead of the one in inventory?
[11:35 AM PT] orbert tatham: Sorry keyboard issues
[11:35 AM PT] orbert tatham: .
[11:35 AM PT] orbert tatham:
[11:38 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was the original group owned?
[11:38 AM PT] orbert tatham: Not deeded to the group that I know of
[11:38 AM PT] orbert tatham: Not certain, though
[11:39 AM PT] orbert tatham: I will have to look at the vendors and the scripts in them
[11:41 AM PT] orbert tatham: The UUID that shows up as Previous Owner" is that of someone who could very possibly be reselling the ideam in his shop in OSGrid
[11:45 AM PT] orbert tatham: The original item is "no transfer" but we all know how wasily that is bypassed
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: uuid on my test prim is right
[11:46 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: When rezzing an item out it has to fetch additional data, because assets and inventory alone don't have all that is necessary to build the scene part, there are only a few paths in code that manipulate the last owner id, rest just takes what data they receive
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: made by a alt on my grid.. and did bring it here with my main alt there that gave it to me
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: what are you talkinng about__
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: inve has all the data
[11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: objects are serielized into inventory
[11:47 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Could the issue be caused by someone taking ownership in God mode?
[11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: same code as oars, basicly
[11:47 AM PT] orbert tatham: That was my thought as well, Cuga
[11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so all info is there
[11:47 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The inventoryitems table has no lastownerID field, only owner and creator
[11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel and worked fine on mu test
[11:50 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: rez code is complicated, it's somewhere in there fetching data from inventory and assets to build the sop, but hardly any code actually interfacing with last owner to set it to something else, that only appears in context of group id
[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well i was told a bout things from user inventorynot prims inventory
[11:52 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Maybe I remember it wrong but when doing hg doesn't the user retain its asset information from the region they came from, meaning transfer data is pulled via that region?
[11:52 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cause it must be pulling the last owner from something other than user inventory
[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well i did text a hg tp and last owner was fine
[11:53 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So either the origin region reporting wrong data, some interaction with group id or potentially an object where the rootpart last owner is somehow corrupted
[11:54 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's really the only places that interacts to build the sop that ends up as base for the viewer data request
[11:54 AM PT] orbert tatham: It came from AMV, and the other grid I tested it on that reported it correctly was (I think) running Diva code
[11:55 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I think someone taking it in god mode, and then perhaps more ownership transfers, could also account for the change
[11:55 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have seen it a few times that last owner just displayed loading... cause the data was somehow missing or couldn't be turned into an actual name due to the remote endpoint being dead
[11:55 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: loading is viewers crap
[11:55 AM PT] orbert tatham: Seen that in the creator field, too - the limitations of just passing the UUID
[11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and guess worse with hg uuids
[11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well no idea
[11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: lastonwer seems to be where it is needed
[11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: how another uuid gets tehre.. no idea
[11:57 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Creator data is fixed as uui or uuid to it so that will always display, if not the profile picture when the endpoint is dead, but last owner id only exists on the rezzed prim, not in inventory or assets. At least I can't see a field that would hold it and assets xml doesn't seem to have it either. The oar serializer pulls it from the sop, but where the transfer over hg to rez gets it from... it's somehow building the sop from somewhere
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: is is on SERIELIZED DATA.. grrr
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: like everything else on a asset
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: object asset
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and that is informative info only... no real need to waste more than ncessary on it
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: anyway.. no idea of the full history of those objects.. and some more debuf on those is needed
[12:01 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: to find how the 75 is injected there
[12:01 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: the uuid 75.. i mean
[12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: withing same grid, on other regions it does show the right last owner?
[12:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well guess we need to ask on next meeting :)
[12:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: any other issue?
[12:05 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: nothing here
[12:05 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh orbert...
[12:05 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: [12:03:10] (You): within same grid, on other regions it does show the right last owner
[12:05 PM PT] orbert tatham: Sorry, momentary crash
[12:06 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ?
[12:06 PM PT] orbert tatham: yes, on the grid where it originated, it shows the same multiple places
[12:06 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well some hg vodoo then
[12:06 PM PT] orbert tatham: the correct person
[12:06 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: correct person is other level.. i mean same uuid :)
[12:07 PM PT] orbert tatham: Right, sorry, sloppy terminology
[12:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah typical HG :)
[12:07 PM PT] orbert tatham: :P
[12:07 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: what if someone on grid B deliberately used the same uuid as someone else on grid A?
[12:07 PM PT] orbert tatham: :P
[12:08 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: for their avi
[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: that is the other level i meant
[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: for on this case the uuid did change
[12:08 PM PT] orbert tatham: Yeah, I made sure the UUIDs were not the same before I brought you the problem
[12:08 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ah ok
[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: uuid collision is another problem
[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: that is not taken in consideration on last owner i guess
[12:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but obert does report a diferent uuid.. no.. well no idea...
[12:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: just ti worked fine on my test
[12:10 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well in other news. Spent last week taking out System.Drawing and dropping SkiaSharp in. Essentially re-implementing the functions used by current code. Just to see how much work that ultimately would be should System.Drawing completely disappear. Quite a few things will need adjusting in libomv due to the dependency, but actual code changes are fairly minimal. Most things can be added back in with relative ease. In fact I mostly copy pasted code and vibe coded the complicated math stuff. It compiles at least. Doesn't work quite right, but that's for later me to figure out. So in summary, System.Drawing can go bye bye and we'll be fine :) Of course currently no reason to replace it while System.Drawing still works fine.
[12:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[12:11 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: is that something for resilience with future dotnet?
[12:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: bc system.draw has actually less dependencies that skia
[12:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and they are very visble while skia are hidden by nuget etc
[12:12 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: SkiaSharp is what Microsoft recommends to use instead so that's part of why I looked at that. There is another option, but that seems less easy to implement
[12:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: skiashark is just a wrapper aroung google skia, compiled in native code
[12:12 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yep
[12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: so we need all its dependencies for ALL platrforms
[12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and i even have no idea where they are lol
[12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well
[12:14 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They are in the nuget packages
[12:14 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Under the runtime folder
[12:14 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you look on nuget for skia you can find the platform specific stuff
[12:14 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: thei are listed on nuget
[12:14 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: https://www.nuget.org/packages/SkiaSharp/#dependencies-body-tab
[12:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: apparently there only win and macos are supported
[12:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: err and android..
[12:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: etc
[12:16 PM PT] orbert tatham: Interesting - Rust libraries have a port of a Skia subset called tiny-skia - I will have to look into it further
[12:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: don-t see linux there.. whatver
[12:16 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The biggest issue it has is that the in-memory stuff changed so code using that will fail spectacularly
[12:16 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: move to skia is moving to even worse evel
[12:17 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: evil
[12:17 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Eh, it's alright. I thought it would be worse, but most of it is essentially the same thing
[12:18 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Honestly thought it would be near impossible to do
[12:18 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well the worse we may need is to unglue system.drawing out of dotnet source tree
[12:18 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: making it i independent project
[12:19 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: thing some already di dthat for private things
[12:19 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: think
[12:19 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc a pain. since it is inside the same source tree, calling things all over the place
[12:19 PM PT] orbert tatham: Have to be careful - Micro$haft could have snuck some copyrights into it since thye owned Mono
[12:19 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: some internal to dotnet, bc reasons
[12:19 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is actual upside to Skia though, some functions internally use memory operations that are much faster so I wonder if all the in-memory stuff is even necessary with it
[12:20 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: duhh it is all inmemory
[12:20 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to go , have a great week everyone :)
[12:20 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Certainly seems near impossible to implement LockBits properly without either not working right or doing a fun access violation
[12:20 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well as in pointers unsafe
[12:20 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: cpuis cant read thigns outside memory >P
[12:20 PM PT] orbert tatham: Later, Cuga
[12:21 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: that is a change ms did all over the place
[12:21 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: qitht the unsafe.as.. crap
[12:21 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I don't like that either, hate pointers, but can't argue with how fast it is
[12:21 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Deal with the devil basically
[12:22 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well unless in debug, that unsafe tyhing is as fast
[12:22 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc guess that made GC even worse...
[12:22 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not really worse, just insanely lazy
[12:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but only reason to lock things in memory is to tell gc to not touch them
[12:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess gc really does not need that
[12:24 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: because on the rare ocasions compiler does things right the asm code is same as c compile would do
[12:25 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: oops
[12:25 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: rl calls
[12:25 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: any other issue ?
[12:26 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Nope
[12:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ok hope to see you all next week :)
[19:26 UTC] *** Logging stopped. ***
[18:02 UTC] *** Logging started. ***
[11:02 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:03 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Allo.
[11:03 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi JNoe
[11:03 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Joe
[11:03 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Joe.
[11:04 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Had a bit commit this week, huge, best commit ever, they say, best commit of the year, that's what they say
[11:04 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:05 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: who had ?
[11:05 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: What was it for?
[11:05 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Imagine the commit messages if that person made them
[11:05 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Imagine the code...
[11:05 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:05 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: what are you talking about? lol
[11:05 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: weaving
[11:05 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The inventory thing
[11:06 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe he is good at making threaded code
[11:06 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: my commit ?
[11:06 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: ;P
[11:07 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well no idea, but talking about commits and last week code changes
[11:07 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: There were a few commits this past week.
[11:08 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yes i made a little fix on inventory, adding a missind urlencode on folder name
[11:08 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: in fact reported by Some Tampa person
[11:09 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: also had to force Yengine scripts reset and recompile, sadly losing state, Due to changes a few weeks ago
[11:09 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and that was it
[11:10 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm surprised the inventory thing had not come up earlier, it's been like that for a long time ever since melanie and diva came up with that mess basically
[11:10 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: err forced that by updateing the compiler and serializer versions
[11:11 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: no one uses silly chars in inventory
[11:11 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I found over 200 entries with more than one leading space so people must have used them over time
[11:11 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: in fact the rules should be more restrictive, like no space
[11:12 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, lets get back to MS DO naming
[11:12 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: DOS
[11:12 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Enforce camelCase lol
[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well in many things we never left those >(
[11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and unless you are chinese or similar, no reason
[11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well even those type en
[11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: anyway.. the urlencode is back there and some chars do wrok again
[11:14 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Oh there was one more piece of news that happened worth mentioning
[11:15 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: About a week ago I ran updates on machinery running ubuntu 24 noble and that broke libgdiplus again
[11:15 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: anyone tried Debian 13 yet?
[11:15 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have the iso sitting around haven't gotten around to installing it
[11:16 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I didn't know it was out.
[11:16 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It might be impacted as well
[11:16 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: about a week or so
[11:16 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I am not exactly sure how it broke, but the only broken part seems to be font rendering
[11:17 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: think linux distros are great on breaking soffware
[11:17 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well now win updates trash ssds
[11:17 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Somehow it's unable to load any font that isn't of fixed glyph type, so svg fonts and such more modern ones just break displaying boxes instead
[11:17 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: MS want everything stored in their cloud
[11:17 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: network boot even
[11:17 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The upside is that you can fetch the old version from 22 jammy and install that along with the libtiff5 dependency and it works again
[11:18 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You just have to fetch the .deb and install them downgrading the installed version
[11:18 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Leave it to Canonical to fuck up a compile
[11:18 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not their first blunder
[11:19 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Seems that the problem has been around for months now and there is an open bug report so maybe it'll get fixed at some point, even blind chickens find a kernel once in a while
[11:19 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:20 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's not really that feasible, but it might at some point become necessary to ship libgdiplus along with binaries
[11:20 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The problem is the dependencies and various system configs between distros make that rather complex
[11:20 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It depends on pango, cairo, libtiff and more
[11:21 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: If you grabbed an older copy of libgdiplus and tiff5 It raises the question as to which is faulty.which
[11:21 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: does it have anything to do with more and more Wayland code creeping into Linux distros?
[11:22 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well font rendering is supposed to be cairo and pango, but I only noticed around the time libtiff was moved to 6, so it's possible that it is just a bad compile not having setup the dependencies properly or something
[11:22 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: From the issue ticket that exists it seems that possibly it was a problem with pango and code was removed that should have stayed or fixed
[11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: are they using libgdi from wine?
[11:22 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's also not clear
[11:23 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The package info lists mono as maintainer, but they kinda gave it to winehq, but seemingly not officially either
[11:23 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: the wine one did got a few changes in may
[11:23 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and jun
[11:23 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It seems they took it and announcing as such, but mono team may have never handed over the connections with the distros
[11:23 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I also can't find any builds from winehq, just the code
[11:23 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: mono team is ms team
[11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: no changes in 6 years or so
[11:24 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It might be that they aren't allowed to hand over control over it, leaving the distros to do that
[11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: 4 years
[11:25 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: https://github.com/mono/libgdiplus
[11:25 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If nothing happens with the distro version of it and the issue ticket remains stale I may just email the winehq maintainer of it to ask if they have any clue as to what's going on
[11:25 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: https://gitlab.winehq.org/mono/libgdiplus.git had changes recently as i said
[11:26 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Canonical and others may have to say "ok we are gonna grab libgdiplus from these guys now, bye ms", wouldn't surprise me
[11:27 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The only other option is fetching source, setting up runners and rolling our own version of it and the dependencies for different distros. A lot of work, but not impossible
[11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: "Make system_fonts initialization thread-safe."
[11:28 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At first I thought it was only the custom fonts through privatefontcollection that broke due to the addmemory way of loading them, but even system wide fonts were broken if they were newer ones with svg scaling or whatever that is
[11:29 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The old stuff like courier new works fine
[11:29 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But the ubuntu one, at least the modern version of that wouldn't load
[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: no idea what source they use
[11:30 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but they keep breaking things
[11:30 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: dotnet from them is broken a lot of time
[11:31 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Compiling libgdiplus is not too difficult, I used to have a environment for that back when it had that massive memory leak
[11:31 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and how are your impostors doing Joe?
[11:31 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and dayturn ?
[11:32 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Impostors? Working on the server side. I have to have my own server to go scan regions and distribute info.
[11:32 AM PT] Joe Magarac: It
[11:32 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: outch
[11:32 AM PT] Joe Magarac: is at animats.info but not doing much yet.
[11:32 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I jsut worked on the build environment last week to make sure I can actually build the Windows version
[11:33 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://github.com/mono/libgdiplus has the following message This repository was archived by the owner on Mar 7, 2025. It is now read-only.
[11:33 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah ms wants libgdiplus dead and buried
[11:33 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you bet
[11:33 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Same with System.Drawing for some reason
[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: it does linux... theirs things do not
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but their excuse is to refuso to mantain libgd adn its dependencies they cant control
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: like cairo and pango
[11:35 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Have you gusy seen the AI generated environments Google has demonstrated that is fully navigatable?
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so they tell you to use things from google
[11:35 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Poor billion dollar company can't afford some developers
[11:35 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: can be changed too in the most recent demos
[11:36 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: looks like a total SL killer too me
[11:36 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: to me*
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: lol
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that actually ends up having its own form of libgdi
[11:39 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ source/libgdiplus/ bug/2069473 For anyone that wants to also complain to Canonical about breaking things :)
[11:39 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://genie3.ai
[11:40 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: How is that meant to kill SL, you can't grief others with it so why bother logging in xD
[11:41 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am sure you can fill it with all kinds in a couple iterations
[11:41 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have athe AI hallucinate up something
[11:41 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: LSD seems more energy efficient
[11:42 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: true, but nobody cares about that
[11:42 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: except some net-zero nuts
[11:42 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: couple iterations, lsd.. errr that is a bit out this meeting theme
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:43 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is not like SL is particularly energy efficient, yeah?
[11:43 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well we are well and truly screwed on that front already so even that wouldn't help
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: this fs limited to 30fps is using 30W on cpu here
[11:44 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They want the holodeck
[11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: pff plus 130W on gpu
[11:44 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I was referring to the SL backend
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ohh ll pays for that, not on my bills
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:45 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:45 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Isn't that just mostly AWS at this point?
[11:45 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure about energy efficient, but certainly not cost effective
[11:46 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Speaking of machine learning things though, still looking for someone that has some knowledge in that for a project I been on and off on for a while now
[11:47 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Just throwing that out there
[11:47 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: even the Rsapberry PI has machine learning add on hardware these days
[11:47 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: facepalm
[11:48 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there must be tons of info out there
[11:48 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: ai is becoming like DOOM, trying to run on a damn toaster next... that's how you get pyromaniac toasters wanting to burn the world
[11:49 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: duhh a few wasted silicon on doing math with low precision floats... and they call it ai
[11:49 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you make the AI HW the toaster
[11:49 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: even a stm32 controler has ai now ( ARM based )
[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: "ai"
[11:50 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: People used to fold proteins to heat their houses, now it's ai generating smut
[11:50 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:50 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes "ai"
[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: every thing has AI now
[11:51 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: more like actually incompetent
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: or made by AI
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: nonsense publicity
[11:51 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: delete prod database
[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ai designed toilet paper.. ofc
[11:52 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Half way through the roll morphs into sandpaper or worse
[11:53 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: err don't say that... some readers my rush looking where to buy that
[11:53 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: errr hmm nm :p
[11:53 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: xD
[11:54 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: haha
[11:54 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that and pizza glue
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well we are close to meeting end time, any other issue?
[11:58 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: That's usually my question. :)
[11:59 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: nope
[12:00 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Thanks all! Off to next meeting.
[12:00 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: With nothing further for today I'll call the meeting to a close.
[12:00 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ok rl calls, cya you all next week, if not before
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[11:04 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:04 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Wow. Small group today. People must be on vacation or back at school.
[11:04 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lry.
[11:04 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *grins*
[11:04 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great to see you!
[11:05 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Yes school started today
[11:06 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes. The CNE ended yesterday so that was always the indicator that summer is over and it is back to school.
[11:06 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: And we picked a date for the OpenSimulator Community Conference - the first weekend in December, if that is good for you. December 6-7, 2025
[11:06 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I've been out sick, but we'll start working on the conference site soon
[11:06 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll put that on my calendar
[11:07 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thanks!
[11:07 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: The OSCC date, not you being out sick. :)
[11:07 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:07 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 chuckles
[11:09 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Speaking of vacations, someone appears to have been on one. I don't see any changes to the source tree being made this past week.
[11:10 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: oh? jezz lazy devs
[11:10 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 grins
[11:11 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I started work on writing migration and schema files for master, after a few months of testing it appears the system is solid enough. I have a large migration coming up which will give that another test though
[11:11 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Convincing my brain to work on boring things isn't easy
[11:11 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 steps away for a moment
[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( wonde how is weather in antarctica now...)
[11:12 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds good, Vincent. Yes, we do have to deal with the boring stuff every now and then so we can get to the fun stuff.
[11:13 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: None of it was really fun given the utter insanity that is the non-standard of sql
[11:14 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Multiple rewrites of queries and routines just to deal with the weirdness of sqlite for example
[11:14 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Along with a pesky bug in the map rendering which I have been unable to track down it's been a fun week
[11:15 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Something about additive zoom level generation causes weird artifacts over time
[11:15 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: you mean, on your fork right?
[11:15 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: What sort of bug in map rendering?
[11:15 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Don't you worry, you'll get the pleasure of integrating that at some point :P
[11:15 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:16 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: (hope iglo rent is cheap this time og year)
[11:16 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I kept the original routine of adding new tiles to existing ones to reduce overhead, but somehow they end up rendering the water wrong, you can see spots on the map
[11:16 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( err hmm are there iglos in antarctica? not sure )
[11:17 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's strange as if it doesn't read the tile and assumes water color instead, but the tiles exist and doing a full refresh works perfectly
[11:17 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did add some file locking so I suspect it's either that or the routine to wait until all tiles are present isn't waiting long enough
[11:18 AM PT] Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: (no too far north. the only thing up there is a research station)
[11:18 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: When the full refresh of 17000 tiles only takes 30 seconds I'm not even sure if I should worry about it or just fire that once in a while instead
[11:18 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Is there no signal to let you know when all the tiles are present?
[11:19 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I check the file modification time and if one is found that is newer than 5 minutes old I wait
[11:19 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( you mean other that the nazi base where hitler is living ?)
[11:19 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:19 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I've done that type of file checking before.
[11:19 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Course that needs refreshing as .net doesn't subscribe to inode or whatever to notice changes
[11:20 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Putting maptile refresh on an hourly cron basically masks the problem now since that seems to work fine, but ideally the additive routine should work too since it's less work for the system
[11:22 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We had some more trouble with libgdiplus as well
[11:23 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: After discovering the font rendering issue I rolled back to the previous builds that were public on apt repos from Canonical, but those builds have a massive memory leak
[11:23 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So instead I went for the build published by mono, which is just slightly above that, but with the leak fixed and working font rendering
[11:23 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Adjusted the wiki to note how one might need to install that now
[11:24 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Canonical has yet to respond to the issue ticket
[11:24 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Frankly not making a great case for their subscription stuff if they can't even fix such bugs within 6 months
[11:25 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The fixed version does compile on ubuntu so there is always that as an option. I have yet to try the version winehq is maintaining
[11:25 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: libgdiplus is an ongoing source of pain.
[11:26 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It just drives me mad when such obvious issues that are documented and even have suspect lines of code pointed just sit there to detriment of not just us, but apparently other software is broken because of this as well
[11:26 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:26 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Canonical is not known for being all that active in fixing these things, prolly the third time in recent history some of their stuff was so old that it had bugs I ran into
[11:27 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I feel your pain. It has affected me with another project.
[11:27 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I tried the debian version, that's broken too and the dependencies it has are strange since they have no actual record in the build binary yet required them by package definition
[11:28 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Getting libtiff5 and libgdiplus via wget and dpkg is easy enough for now to fix things
[11:28 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If the winehq version works with font rendering there is always the option to make a .deb for that one or straight include the dll in the shipped binary
[11:29 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Have not tested if this also breaks on mac os, but it might be broken there too
[11:31 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hearing from FS that they had reports of textures failing to load on the latest release, but so far apparently no reports from OS side of things on that. Latest I have is that there is some suspect code being narrowed down so might see a fix for that
[11:31 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I tried reproducing that a couple days ago, but no luck
[11:32 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Seems rather random and only happening when a lot of regions are loaded as well, something we no longer really see
[11:32 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Maybe that's just my lower view distance setting, but I rarely see more than 5 regions loaded at once these days even if they just regular size
[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: now all are improving their regions using 2k textures everywhere, including nano prims
[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:34 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's apparently not overload of vram or whatever. I suspect more cache or network things, but that's just my gut feeling
[11:35 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: After the object cache thing I am distrustful of viewer caches xD
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well degradated cpus did error telling nor enough vram in same games
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but no idea "not load"can mean a lot of things
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Supposedly is hardware independent error, but yeah crossed my mind too
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well they remain gray
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Some load, but most are gray
[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and sl only opensim only or both ?
[11:37 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: From what I heard no reports on our end, so that makes me think it's network since we have slight differences there
[11:38 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Terse updates and such
[11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: what does "our end"mean in that context ?
[11:38 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Supposedly reverting a lot of code from fixes seems to help so there seems to be a clue as to what it is
[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and reverting code from what fixes?
[11:39 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well no reports related to OpenSim, only a problem at SL
[11:39 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Viewer side code related to changes from last release
[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ok ty
[11:41 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I recall a similar problem years and years ago where textures would randomly stop loading, but that was around the time Hippo was a thing so don't remember what the problem was. Don't think it's related
[11:42 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: users may just became color blind
[11:43 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Reject textures, embrace basic colors!
[11:45 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 smiles
[11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( no snoring here please)
[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i was hoping Cuga could come to this meeting
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: we have code contributions for Bullet on mantis, without apple silicon support
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: maybe next week :)
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: gavin also
[11:51 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I did talk to him about that and he wants to poke mb to see if the changes to that are useful
[11:52 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No point in building mac os version when it doesn't offer anything useful or breaks stuff in the process
[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: last seems added more threads to its use
[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess coder does not know that some run 100 regions per PI core
[11:53 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well per box ( pi or not )
[11:53 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Throwing all good sysadmin practices out the window isn't really something you can adjust for
[11:53 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: opensim is not a desktop game
[11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well all apps need proper balance of thread use
[11:54 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: True
[11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: something dotnet only gets worse, if allowed
[11:55 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Throwing more at it doesn't necessarily mean more performance when in the end it all has to sync up to build a frame
[11:55 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: wome forks did remove SmartThreadpool
[11:55 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ignoreing that it does allow for better threading control
[11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and does not use ms thread managing p[arameters
[11:56 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can rip out and replace all sorts of things, most of that doesn't really offer any better experience given it then still has to run other slow code
[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: like only asking for a real new thread 2 seconds later
[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm or 1 or something that high
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well that bullet will add its own manager from cpp libs
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so possible bullet will run on tyhe nice E-cores :)
[11:58 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And you can hardly force these things either. I tried doing manual gc after map tile render to free that memory up quicker, but no amount of force gc stuff I added did anything, it just held onto that memory for 5 minutes and that's that
[11:59 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: you have no real way to tell gc to release anuthing
[11:59 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's become pretty clear now yeah
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: force gc is only like ask 'can you please check for mem to release?'
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: many times gc just ignores it
[12:00 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Throwing everything but the kitchen sink at it and it appears more stubborn than me so I capitulate and just left a delay in there
[12:01 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks, dear friends, for a great meeting. We are thankful for your ideas and for keeping our dream alive. *hugs all around*
[12:01 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I must dash away to work and dream of space exploration. *winks*
[12:01 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:01 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Wishing you a lovely day! Pardon my interruption.
[12:01 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 waves
[12:01 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah rl also calls me...
[12:02 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: have a corvette stuck on a planet somewhere
[12:02 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: oops nm
[12:02 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Teaching classes and building corvettes...
[12:02 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 chuckles
[12:02 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: bon voyage!
[12:02 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:02 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: so any another for todya ?
[12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: other issue i mean..
[12:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ok cya next week if not before :)
[12:11 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Time to wrap up todays meeting as we are no past the hour mark.
[12:11 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: now past
[12:11 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
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[11:02 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Hello?
[11:03 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ubit seems to have fallen asleep
[11:04 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll see if ubit is online
[11:05 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Let's see commits... only had the partial implementation of llSetBuoyancy without the unset parts, which are a bit of a can of worms to implement hence why the set part wasn't implemented either, at least not for attachments
[11:05 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: He isn't on IRC at the moment.
[11:05 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Removing or resetting the flag on detach is quite difficult to achieve in a light manner
[11:06 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There are some heavy ways of doing it, but obviously that's no good to do each detach call
[11:06 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Cuga.
[11:06 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hello!
[11:06 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Would need additional structures to record if the flag was changed and so on, all just a lot of crap for very little gain and making detach and attach heavier
[11:08 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Kinda strange anyways because I recall taking a swim a while back with an attachment that must've used something else for that just fine and it didn't turn me into a rubber duck either, meaning I still sink to the bottom as normal these days
[11:09 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure if the ultimate solution is a new attachment handling system, but that's even more work just for something that I think already works fine through other means
[11:09 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh youre talking about the attachment buoyancy change?
[11:09 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes
[11:09 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'm interested in learning more about that
[11:10 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I have a build that can use it
[11:10 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So from what I saw in Ubit's notes, theres a problem when the attachment is detached, avatar motor doesn't reset, correct?
[11:11 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I have a travelling balloon script that uses buoyancy.
[11:11 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I never worked with it. I was given some life ring type deal a while ago to wear and that worked to make me float around quite nicely, took it off sank back to the bottom, so not sure how that works, but it seems to just be specifically for that behavior
[11:11 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can already make things float quite well even avatars, maybe I still have that thing somewhere in inventory
[11:11 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Thats all I need. Its not easy to make things float without the recent change
[11:12 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: llAllyImpulse on a timer was the only way before
[11:12 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: llApplyImpulse*
[11:12 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is hoverheight as well you can move avatars up and down with quite nicely
[11:13 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: upward force is needed for my applications
[11:13 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and scripting to turn it on or off
[11:14 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Other positive news this week include a merge at FS means we got our time zone back to PST/PDT with the next release, hurray
[11:14 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yay!
[11:14 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: we spent some time lamenting about that
[11:14 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well I complained enough that someone listened I suppose xD
[11:15 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: TJ did me that favor, I'm happy for it
[11:16 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Took some of his time setting up viewer builds yesterday to try and debug some of the other issues the viewer still has like the broken syntax highlighting and the legacy search
[11:16 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Granted my C skills are close to zero so that might take a while
[11:17 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At least might be able to now repack the installers and include an actual grid list worth a damn. It seems HGB has completely stopped maintaining their site so their list will be broken soon enough and annoyingly that's what Firestorm currently uses for a list to present to users
[11:18 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is a big implication potentially exposing users to malicious actors via such a list. Granted I agree that curating such a list of "trusted" grids is a pain and does cause some bad blood, but I'd argue that's preferable over users ending up on a grid that scams them in some way. That makes the entire metaverse look bad
[11:20 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Basic terms we all use to determine whether we trust some company with our data isn't unreasonable to apply to grids, well that's my opinion anyways
[11:20 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: HGB used to vet their list?
[11:20 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sometimes
[11:20 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So not any worse then
[11:21 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: By now some of the entries are dead and new stuff doesn't appear to be added
[11:21 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not that they were ever that up to date or particularly detail orientated
[11:22 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So a new method wouldn't be any worse
[11:23 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If Firestorm said they'd only allow grids on there that had been online for a certain amount of months or years, had some terms of service that are reasonable I don't think anyone would really mind
[11:23 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Though I suspect the bigger problem is investing the time in checking that
[11:23 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes
[11:23 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: the bad actors will by lying
[11:25 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I got a whole wall of those heh
[11:25 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Suggest not vetting but instead add a sensible warning with the list. Or do some vetting with well known names but not worry about checking all the entries on every update
[11:26 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: At that point really I'd prefer no list at all
[11:26 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We have the way of adding via link so that should be easy enough for most
[11:27 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh whats the link?
[11:28 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: secondlife:///app/gridmanager/addgrid/login.zetaworlds.com for example
[11:28 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's essentially all that new grid list in the viewer does too since it just loads a website
[11:29 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Oh you mean a custom thing set up on each OS grid?
[11:30 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: That for is not on my grid lol
[11:30 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: form*
[11:30 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can use that as button to add it to a users grid manager yes, though FS needs to be the viewer registered to the handler
[11:30 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: what about standalone hypergrid?
[11:31 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can put any address there
[11:31 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Did not know this. OK so its a reserved secondlife:// URL I can cann from my viewer on my own grid?
[11:32 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I can call*
[11:33 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can put that on a website after user registers for example so they can add the grid directly if they haven't already or on the viewer download page. It's like ftp:// or http:// just the handler and then the function to run with the loginuri at the end
[11:33 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello!
[11:33 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I see
[11:33 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Lyr!
[11:34 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So it can be used as a convenient link for an end user to log in to that grid
[11:34 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: To add the grid to the grid manager yes
[11:35 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: confused
[11:36 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Grid manager is the replacement for HGB?
[11:36 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: or not related
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: grid manager is Preferences->Opensim thing
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: (hi)
[11:36 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Ubit.
[11:37 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: oh right ok
[11:37 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Hi Ubit
[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeack my fs beta did refuse to run bc 2 old?
[11:37 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Cuga, not related. Users can add/remove entries from the list in FS as they wish.
[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: im not sure i like that fs feature for opensim
[11:38 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So that adds the grid to their local list, got it. Not related to the master "grid list"replacing HGB
[11:38 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, this grid wants a certain minimum version to avoid problems related to the viewer version.
[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: it is not this grid.. it is FS
[11:39 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: FS has timebombed the viewer to not allow login after 28 days of release of a beta version
[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: err not the release.. the beta
[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: im on a older release
[11:39 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ah, ok. I haven't used a beta version of viewer in a long time.
[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: 17.70368
[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not sure how old.. but 0ld :)
[11:40 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I'm still on 7.1.11
[11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well if i remeber the download site i may try to get a newer beta
[11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: if it just by date is jaust silly
[11:42 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: anyway.. if there are no problems, some one will invent new ones
[11:42 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:42 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If they had released a new beta in the meantime I could see why, but that is still the latest beta so...
[11:43 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I understand why they do that.
[11:43 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Yes, I saw their note about no newer beta that is working
[11:43 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: same here and they closed the bug report for it
[11:44 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: https://jira.firestormviewer.org/browse/FIRE-35930?filter=-6
[11:44 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Sad that this happens during their Anniversary
[11:44 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: They probably think a new beta will be available before the previous one expires.
[11:45 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd welcome more development versions to test with certainly
[11:45 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not sure why it doesn't just phone home to check for status, it already sends a bunch of telemetry and retrieves a bunch of files from the net as is
[11:46 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: with the 28 day expiration, they recommend reverting back to a previous one
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah i see .. a very silly thing
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: nahh they say to just use the oficial release
[11:46 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: I tried an earlier version, but it did not work
[11:46 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: so I installed the release candidate *girns*
[11:47 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Thank you for your solution, Tampa...
[11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: as i said... ppl always like to create problems where there where none
[11:47 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Problems are just undiscovered solutions
[11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: now they have the building sistem broken and did let the beta expire
[11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: whatever
[11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: cuga.Rajal
[11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: seen the changes on bullet at mantis?
[11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: proposed changes..
[11:48 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: hyes
[11:49 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I am still trying to reach MrBlue to discuss it, but there are issues with his proposed patch
[11:49 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: there are no bins for apple so i have that on "ice"
[11:49 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well i didn-t look to details
[11:49 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: the multithread things.. well not fan of that for opensim
[11:49 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: That Mantis is Bullet related not apple
[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yes but no apple silicon builts...
[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that is what i meant
[11:50 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: We wouldnt use his binasry anyway
[11:50 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Need to rebuild from a patch
[11:50 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: if used at all
[11:50 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: But
[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc
[11:50 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: His proposed change adds a dependency on a lib that only exists on Linux
[11:51 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: So Im not thrilled with that
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: duhh
[11:51 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Mac does have its own variant of that lib, but I dont think its in the Windows ecosphere
[11:52 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: But I ewanted MrBlue to look at the Manrtis before getting back to him
[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: what lib? gpu related math ?
[11:52 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yeah
[11:52 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: looking...
[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel i told there we do not care abotu gpu
[11:52 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: OpenCL
[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: mots opensim cant use any gpu
[11:53 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Bullet already had GPU optional support before his patch
[11:53 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: If we try to use GPU is better use whats already in Bullet
[11:53 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well guess tehre is some openCL for win, just not included in drivers like openGL
[11:53 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: think he only worked aroud compilation settings etc
[11:53 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I tried to compile it with the Mac OpenCL drivers but didnt work
[11:53 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: no real code on that
[11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but didnt look much
[11:54 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Let me reach out to MrBlue and see if I can get him to answer the Mantis :)
[11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: anyway.. im not fan of gpu use or even multithreading
[11:54 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: should be an option, not default
[11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: those are great for desktop games
[11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not for a app like opensim
[11:55 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: specially running on a linux server
[11:55 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that have no gpu worth mentioning, and has like 100 instances of opensim up
[11:56 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: His justification was to give Bullet more "horsepower" but I rarly if even have an instance where more is needed
[11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so.. where are teh cores to run the extra threads? :)
[11:56 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and you know I do a lot of physics stuff...
[11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well current bullet as a option to run it on own thread
[11:56 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: his patch also "ignores small movements" but Bullet already has that feature
[11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: his reasoning if fine.. for a desktop game
[11:57 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Im inclined to say NO to the proposed patch but would like MrBlue to chime in
[11:57 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: make sure my commentys are accurate
[11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: even on a standalone running on a desktop with a viewer.. the viewer wants the gpu
[11:59 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: anyway guess there can be some sue cases of ppl with a machine just to run a single region with a 5090
[11:59 AM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: It woul d be nice to have a GPU option... as an option, NOT default
[11:59 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting.
[12:00 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: if the comp can handle it
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i see ppl doing 5000 Euros donations on twitch.. so guess there are ppl with machines like that to spare :)
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: cya joe
[12:01 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I'll reach out to MrBlue to see if he can chime in
[12:01 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: on that proposed Bullet patch
[12:01 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well above all im not moving if it does not work on all the platforms we want, inc apple silicon
[12:02 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: agree, needs to be cross platform same code base and features
[12:02 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc we do thank the efford and th contribution
[12:03 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ofc
[12:03 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: yes, positive language in the Mantis is needed
[12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm i do have here another with some changes to pgsql
[12:03 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: even of rejected
[12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ill look a bit more and possible ally
[12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: aply
[12:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: for some reason ppl sent a patch directly to me..
[12:06 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just past the hour. Any other items for today?
[12:07 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: nothing new, still working on the conference website
[12:07 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: That will keep you busy for a day or three. :)
[12:08 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing more for today I will call this gathering done and dusted.
[12:08 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[19:08 UTC] *** Logging stopped. ***
[18:01 UTC] *** Logging started. ***
[11:01 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:02 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc untill i open a thing and forget to put the shields back...
[11:03 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Once we get started I will have to step away for a bit. I just got a call where I need to check on a system that doesn't appear to be working as it should. I need to have a look at it.
[11:03 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what are you ruining now?
[11:03 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( but tohsoe shileds are mostly about passing regulation tests )
[11:04 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: pff s imply rf links...
[11:04 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: press a btn here see a relay tick there..
[11:04 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Getting to play with microchips, rf and assembly, no fair, I only get to debug annoying hard to replicate bugs as of late
[11:05 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: pff such a simpel thing. and i lost days...
[11:05 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well 2 days...
[11:05 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: random error.. ofc
[11:06 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Hi all.
[11:06 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Joe
[11:06 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hi
[11:06 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, what have you been messing with that has/had shields?
[11:06 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Hiya folks. Is it ok to join you?
[11:06 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Joe.
[11:06 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Absolutely, Hyacinth. Pull up a seat.
[11:07 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 grins
[11:07 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Lyr.
[11:07 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello Andrew!
[11:07 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: nahh this those nor need shiedls.. just low impedance IOs where matters
[11:07 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: those nor ??? does not!
[11:08 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: basic stuff bahh
[11:08 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: oops meeting started? bad andrew
[11:08 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: :p
[11:09 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Just waited for a couple of other people to arrive and they have.
[11:09 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I was just checking the change log. Just two changes today. One related to PostgreSQL support and the other is mostly cosmetic.
[11:10 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but didt the opening speach
[11:10 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I usually say hello soon after I arrive.
[11:10 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: anyway... on code, i just push a patch from Licu Rau from Craft/World for PostgreSQL
[11:11 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: in friends code
[11:11 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what does it do?
[11:11 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: it works around some case sensive issues
[11:11 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:12 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The inconsistency across the db landscape in that regard is a pain
[11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and adds GetUsersWhere() that only mysql had
[11:12 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[11:13 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I used chatgpt to convert postgres views to mysql views today and it worked great
[11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: also added a patch form one vincent.Sylvester that removes a unnecessary temporary string
[11:13 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I bet it works the other way too
[11:14 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Between 3 or 4 db systems and underlying platform differences it's a surprise it works as well as it does with the different naming conventions all over the place, but you'll pull your hair our trying to sort that out reasonably
[11:14 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, I think that would be a safe bet.
[11:15 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: is anything about AI a safe bet ?
[11:15 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i would consider it only a bet
[11:15 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: haha
[11:15 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the only safe bet is it will start hallucinating fast
[11:15 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:15 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can't be worse than going off a stackoverflow that's ten years old and out of date
[11:15 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Gavin, :)
[11:16 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and in some cases violate copyrights
[11:16 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Isn't there a lawsuit where Stackoverflow is part of it for copyright infringements?
[11:16 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Some of that information on SO may be old but can still be valid. At least you know it came from a person.
[11:17 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: you are more than ten yrs old ( we thing) are you out of date ?
[11:17 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed Andrew
[11:17 AM PT] Ubit Umarov hides and runs...
[11:17 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: err and hides again
[11:17 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks grins at Ubit.
[11:17 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Maybe, I haven't found a best before date printed anywhere on me yet though
[11:17 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, We'll send the T-rex after you.
[11:17 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: this was basically converting SQL the proprietary MySQl version
[11:18 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe it could convert the search code to work with postgres and php too
[11:18 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The differences emerging in mariadb from mysql is getting on my nerves lately. I get their wish to have their own thing, but the branding nonsense just makes it annoying to write agnostic code now
[11:18 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: ossearch?
[11:18 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:19 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I fixed that whole thing about two years ago
[11:19 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for postgres?
[11:19 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The php side of things
[11:19 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, are there issues in the ossearch module I have maintained that needs updating?
[11:19 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I didn't know that Vincent
[11:20 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You asked me that three times already, yeah there are a few bugs in there and some missing parts too
[11:20 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I fixed it building websearch system a while back
[11:20 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: I am still getting ossearch errors when the map comes up
[11:20 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But that code is in codeigniter format so you'd have to pull it out of the class structure into plain php
[11:20 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Presumably when it is looking for event markers, etc
[11:20 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: My mind has been on other projects for a while and work has been getting in the way of a number of projects.
[11:20 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: then there is the admin modules that only work for myssql
[11:21 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: mysql even
[11:21 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I don't recall exactly what it was, but I think classifieds, something on parcels and some other flag that was misaligned
[11:21 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: It's a malformed numeric field or something like that
[11:22 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I will need to find time to look at the bug tracker for ossearch and osprofile.
[11:22 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: But I didn't come here to complain. I've been really happy with the latest code overall
[11:23 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: cuga is not here, so no news on that bullet PR
[11:23 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Not a problem. We need to know about issues so they can be fixed (eventually), or at least noted in the bug tracker.
[11:23 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is also the part where the tables all need to be the same format and charset and all that jazz else you can't create proper search queries across them as joins would take minutes converting data
[11:23 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and how are your viewers Joe and gavin ?
[11:24 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: crawling forward
[11:24 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, The charset thing is a bit of a mess.
[11:24 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Andrew, Gavin, best find me on discord and I'll throw the files at you and provide what I can remember :)
[11:24 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: since I only can build in a virtual machine it is getting increasingly hairy
[11:25 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Other than wanting to thank you for your work, which I imagine you don't hear enough. I had some questions about plans for the llSetRenderMaterial and related functions.
[11:25 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: pbr will be implemented in time, when LL has actually settled on what they want to do
[11:25 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I also need to install the latest macOS released yesterday to see if the viewer runs at all. I only have one Intel based machine left it can be installed on.
[11:25 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: did i mentioned how i hate the mess ll did with pbr materials ?
[11:25 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: I started writing the functions, but if y'all planned to add those in thenear future, I will hold off
[11:26 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hyacinth, ok. I was going to say you will be up next after Gavin finishes.
[11:26 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I noticed LL has not released a mobile viewer update for weeks, and there is arm build code starting to appear for the regular viewer
[11:26 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: I got them working well enough to implememnt a single project. But it still needs code to populate the default materials, etc
[11:27 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: oh sorry :)
[11:27 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: no, worries. It happens. I try to keep it to one discussion at a time.
[11:27 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: anyway, that's my tiny update
[11:27 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well they need to put some in there if they want to move forward on mac either way I imagine
[11:28 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks for the update, Gavin.
[11:28 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they need to write a renderer
[11:28 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I pray for your sanity once they get to that, knowing them it might not be pretty
[11:28 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:28 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: maybe they have given up going the Unity route
[11:28 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well that ll function is a mess
[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: to proper handle it, regions need to fetch and decode the pbr asset
[11:29 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: alos the repository is a mess with branched coming and going almost every day
[11:29 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: then using then keep and update and pbr override
[11:29 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Welcome to the group, Hyacinth. You can go ahead with your question (although it seems Ubit is already giving an answer).
[11:30 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Sorry last time I was here was 2019 and it was pretty much a free for all. haha
[11:30 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: wiht stupid details like to remove the asset and most the overide, does not delete the overider
[11:30 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Yeah I just wanted to know if the llSetRenderMaterial and related functions are in the works
[11:31 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: bc it also includes the textures tranforms
[11:31 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hyacinth, Some days it can be. I try to not let it get too out of control
[11:31 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel and ofc ll kept changing things.. so jsut delayed all that
[11:32 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Last time I checked that stuff the constants didn't have wiki pages which tells me "subject to change"
[11:32 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: sadly ll did a huge mess with PBR
[11:32 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You expect it at this point, but it is still disappointing
[11:32 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not to mention the viewer side performance
[11:33 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: *slideshow
[11:33 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not to mention every rock face in world looking like it just rained on them
[11:33 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: still not great.. but was a disaser
[11:33 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: What I worry about is everyone uploading 2048x2048 textures by default.. for everything
[11:33 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ppl will pay near 3000 USD to have a gpu to be at sl
[11:33 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hyacinth, I won't be surprised if some people wind up doing that.
[11:33 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: now NOT
[11:34 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: And then said gpu melts its connector and burns down your house :P
[11:34 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:34 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks nods
[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: at least now they only need to pay 1000 USD or so :p
[11:34 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: If you grab models from sketchfab, etc.. they all have huge textures, and that's probably where most people will harvest materials
[11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( plust the rest of a pc )
[11:34 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: amd what when the windmills stop??!
[11:35 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I used to spend $3k on an entire system. I wouldn't spend that much just on a video card.
[11:35 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: A suggestion for the future. Add a way to clamp the texture size when uploading materials
[11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hyacinth if you want you can share ur code as a patch on mantis
[11:36 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can change the maximum texture resolution allowed for upload already, the viewer just won't reflect that and just fail the upload instead
[11:36 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: ok. When I make more progress on it, I will share what I have. Right now I just have it working well enough to do what i need to do
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well i listed most what is needed
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: at least the part that irritates me
[11:36 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Ah.. and the other concern. 2048x2048 bakes. lol
[11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: opensim bakes are viewer side
[11:37 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Those are temporary as well
[11:37 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: The problem is not knowing how the texture will be used. 2k x 2k would seem reasonable for a terrain or large object. Not so much for the parts of hair object.
[11:37 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: I have found the newer viewers are sending 2048 no matter what you are wearing
[11:37 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: so a server side resize would probably be the only way to make that more efficient
[11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc all sl "creators"changed to 2K
[11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: we can-t do that server side
[11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: would be a big can of worms
[11:38 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Well the viewer itself is supposed to send bakes that are the size of the largest texture used. But even if it is all 1024, it still composes a 2048 bake texture for everything
[11:38 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: and that is what gets sent to /bakes
[11:38 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, some will use a 2k tex as a texture atlas
[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: thing they still limit eyes
[11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: think
[11:39 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: would probalby runin the item if downscaled
[11:39 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ruin*
[11:39 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: So when I wear bom.. people on old viewers can't see me.. just gray
[11:39 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: No I mean just the bakes.. Resize the huge ones on the server sside before they are stored
[11:39 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Every viewer even the old 6.x branch should show 2k textures, they were supported back then
[11:40 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[11:40 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They only x2 the max size everywhere basically
[11:40 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: We've thoroughly tested it. Some people might see my head, and the rest gray
[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: doing that can mess soem seems on the final rendering
[11:40 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: or see me on one time.. and not, the next
[11:40 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: make a grey (alien) avatar
[11:40 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: problem solved
[11:40 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hence you can use 4k textures now as well, not that anyone should
[11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: like neck line.. hands etc
[11:40 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: if everyone is on FS 7 it is fine
[11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not sure fs does 2k bakes for opensim
[11:41 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: It does
[11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: didnt look
[11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeack
[11:42 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: If the FS devs don't care, then all we can do is have the bakes service downsize them
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well that is not suposed to do that..
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: decode the j2k, downscale, reencode...
[11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that adds up on machine load a lot...
[11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hm and thats several per avatar. forgot the number
[11:44 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Well 2k bakes adds a LOT of network load
[11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but more than a dozen
[11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: better we ask fs to limit to 1k
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: for them is easy
[11:45 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Theoretically, it is supposed to
[11:45 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: But, in SL, it causes no isses
[11:45 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: other than lag
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: they do limti eyes, etc
[11:45 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: and they are all about SL
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: thing those are still 512
[11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel that code is now opensim only
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: the viewer side bake
[11:46 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yup
[11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: we just need to bother Beq on fs
[11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: gavin and joe are here for their viewers :)
[11:47 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: I'll have to look at the FS code again.
[11:47 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It not displaying a 2k textures is strange though, cause we have had dynamic textures with that resolution since forever working fine, so there is something else going on potentially causing them to be rendered even larger
[11:47 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: It is "flaky"
[11:47 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Sometimes it will, sometimes it won't
[11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well guess bakes fall under LOD
[11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so viewers will never get 2K
[11:48 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: The people on the v6 viewrs have a hard time with it
[11:49 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Realistically that branch is on life support anyways, with probably not that long before it will stop getting any attention
[11:49 AM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hyacinth, your textures look great
[11:49 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Am I right in thinking that the bakes are first passed to the sim, and then the sim sublits them to Robust bakes service?
[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: bakes service is only a file store, basicly
[11:50 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Right, but does it get funneled through the sim?
[11:50 AM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: viewer code handles the baking in opensim
[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so yeah 2k is more data on region-robust trafic
[11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but i do hope users will never get 2k
[11:51 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: I am on bom now, so all my textures are probably 2048 at the moment
[11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but the way ll does that is in fact a violation to j2k files spec
[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so they cant use a modern openjpeg lib
[11:52 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Gotta get all the resolution you can get to display those age rings in glorious 4k xD
[11:52 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: hehe
[11:52 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: lol
[11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: only KDU and a older openjpeg that allow the hack they do
[11:53 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Well let me pass along to the next person. I need to go afk for a moment
[11:53 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( they only send the start of the j2k file up to the resoulution they want )
[11:55 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: We are just five minutes before the top of the hour. Any other questions someone wants to ask on a different topic?
[11:56 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Submitted a patch to FS this week to fix up the syntax highlighting in the viewer not properly loading the simulator override
[11:56 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Might be a bit before it gets merged though
[11:57 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Still doing debugging on an environment bug that might be server side or client side, too early to tell
[11:57 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: When Vincent finishes I do have something to ask Lyr.
[11:58 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Also have to do some more tests on the primitems rewriting to make sure that doesn't break some edge case, but seems like it works so far
[11:58 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Should reduce the disk writes on some larger items when they somehow get rewritten to disk over and over
[11:58 AM PT] Joe Magarac: Next meeting, gotta go...
[11:58 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. See you next week.
[11:59 AM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Fast poofer :)
[11:59 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah
[11:59 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ty, Vincent. If you are finished I am going to turn to Lyr.
[12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ( lyr mb afk for a bit )
[12:00 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Lyr, Any updates for us about the OSCC? I think I saw the notice about the call for proposals went out.
[12:00 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, yes, probably is around this time.
[12:00 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I need to go and fix something RL, so see you all next week
[12:00 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cheers
[12:01 PM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: tc Gavin
[12:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Gavin.
[12:01 PM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Nice meeting you
[12:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll have to table the question for next week.
[12:02 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: https://conference.opensimulator.org/speakers/call-for-proposals/
[12:02 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: If there is nothing further for this week I will bring this meeting to a close.
[12:02 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thanks, Ubit.
[12:02 PM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Thank you everyone. I am glad I made it today. It was nice seeing everyone
[12:03 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Before we go, I will say welcome back to Hyacinth. Hope it won't be another 6 years before we see you again. :)
[12:03 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:03 PM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: I will try to make it more often
[12:03 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: great!
[12:03 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Oh, now Lyr wakes up.
[12:03 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:03 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: haha
[12:03 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Our Call for Proposals for the OpenSimulator Community Conference went out
[12:04 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: anyone who wishes to host a community event, short talk or panel, please send in a proposal.
[12:04 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I thought I saw something about that on Teams.
[12:04 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great!
[12:04 PM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: Sweet talk Phillip Rosedale to attend again :)
[12:04 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 chuckles
[12:05 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: won't be the same without Mal Burns... Thirza is hosting a Hypergrid Safari for him on October 1st on Craft
[12:05 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: at Mal's home there
[12:05 PM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: He's amoung us anyway. But that was the first time I have seen him as him. hehe
[12:05 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: right ... was such a surprise
[12:05 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: No, it won't. Is there any sort of memorial planned for the oSCC?
[12:05 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: On Wed Oct 1st
[12:05 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: it is a memorial for Mal at the Hypergrid Safari
[12:06 PM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: He is sorely missed
[12:06 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Details will be posted here https://hgsafari.blogspot.com/
[12:06 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ty, Lyr. If you remember, you can remind us again when we get close to that date.
[12:06 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Yes, he is
[12:06 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: will do, Andrew
[12:06 PM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: We lost our Commandant and the Sl Coast Guard the same week too :(
[12:06 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: as it is in 2 weeks...more meetings
[12:07 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: oh very sad, Hyacinth
[12:07 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks, dear friends. I must dash to class
[12:07 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: take care and have a great week... see you next week
[12:07 PM PT] Hyacinth.Jean @groovyverse.com:8002: tc Lyr. Have a good day
[12:07 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: A member of the local Filk music community recently passed away unexpectedly. He wasn't someone anyone was worried about health wise.
[12:07 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: You too, Hyacinth *cheers*
[12:07 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Time to turn off the recording device.
[12:08 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: that is always a shock, Andrew, very sorry for your loss
[19:08 UTC] *** Logging stopped. ***