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[11:03 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Kayaker.<br>
[11:04 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: evening guys<br>
[11:05 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: I do my normal backups to a server in the barn across the street over a LAN cable.<br>
[11:05 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hi<br>
[11:05 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: But a forest fire could take out my house and the barn....<br>
[11:05 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, stay away from certain areas of California. :)<br>
[11:05 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: So periodically I back up to a drive that lives in a safety deposit box.<br>
[11:05 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: backupbarn.com<br>
[11:05 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)<br>
[11:06 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Did that last night, and this morning I'm hot swapping SATA drives on my live desktop.<br>
[11:06 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Linux handles that well.<br>
[11:06 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Jamie<br>
[11:07 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Jamie<br>
[11:07 AM PT]  Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: Hi everybody<br>
[11:07 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hi<br>
[11:07 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, Are you running with drives in a RAID configuration in the desktop?<br>
[11:08 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: No<br>
[11:08 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: jagga i can't read all that article in detail<br>
[11:08 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok. I was wondering about you hot swapping them.<br>
[11:09 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: ok Ubit<br>
[11:09 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: first question of spliting robust, is .. do you really need to do that?<br>
[11:09 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: What article are we talking about?<br>
[11:09 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: to bring rest of you up to speed on what Ubit and I are talking about...<br>
[11:10 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I don't know. It wasn't mentioned after I arrived.<br>
[11:10 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: [10:54] Jagga Meredith: Aviworlds is about to go through the process of moving assets to a linux server.  Josh is going to hire some guys in Brazil recommended by Alex (yes, THAT Alex).  Know anything about them?
[10:54] Jagga Meredith: I'd take a whack at it but I don't have time
[10:58] Jagga Meredith: There's an article here
[10:58] Jagga Meredith: https://blog.sarapayne.co.uk/opensim-separating-robust-instances/<br>
[11:10 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: assets are getting bogged down<br>
[11:10 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: so thinking of moving them to separate server, running linux<br>
[11:11 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: the article apparently shows how, I just don't trust the guys in Brazil given who recommended them, would rather have somebody known<br>
[11:11 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am running with a separate robust for textures<br>
[11:12 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: ok<br>
[11:12 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have done so for many years, and it works fine<br>
[11:12 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: I hear OSGrid has many copies of Robust running.<br>
[11:12 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: kinda where I got the idea from<br>
[11:12 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: several do run several instances ues<br>
[11:12 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yes<br>
[11:13 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Discovery Grid has a bunch of Robust running with NGIX to balance the load.<br>
[11:13 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure what it has got to do with 0.9.2 specifically as mentioned in the article<br>
[11:13 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did the same also for 0.8.2 and so on<br>
[11:13 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i made some changes on 0.9,.2<br>
[11:14 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok<br>
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: one service can't be duplicated<br>
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: bc it has simple caching<br>
[11:14 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: since I only have one instance of robust for textures I have not bumped into that limitation yet :-)<br>
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and as the article tells, i changed the wiki<br>
[11:15 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: ok, we're interested specifically in the section about moving assets to its own server as that seems to be our bottleneck<br>
[11:15 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that kinda stated the usual More instance and threads is better, typical of some opensim... well nm<br>
[11:16 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: current text tries to be more conservative abotu that<br>
[11:16 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have robust on a dedicated machine separate from the db, which is also on a separate machine<br>
[11:16 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: in several cases you will have no gain on running multiple instances of same service, even if possible<br>
[11:16 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: db on separate gear might be an idea and fairly straightforward<br>
[11:16 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have been considering moving robust to th db machine, as they then can communicate over a unix socket and not the genral network<br>
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: the split by by several machines is possible,  but one needs to be carefull to what services to run where<br>
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: some depend heavy on others..<br>
[11:18 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes<br>
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and ofc split by corresponding mysql backends<br>
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: or there is no point<br>
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( or other BD ofc )<br>
[11:19 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: ok<br>
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: osgrid does run several instances of robust<br>
[11:19 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sure about the split by mysql backends<br>
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: at a point did run several instances of assets servers<br>
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and had sync issues<br>
[11:20 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: aha<br>
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: they are now running a diferent server that uses a diferent "db"<br>
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: proprietary thing..<br>
[11:21 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: OSGrid <br>
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well its how it is :)<br>
[11:21 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: probably some greek thing<br>
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: by mysql backedns i mean mysql in diferent machines  each with own set of DBs matching the services split<br>
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so their load is also divided<br>
[11:22 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: yep<br>
[11:23 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well use of SQL  is a pretty bad option on most dbs<br>
[11:23 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: SQL is damm heavy<br>
[11:24 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: some dbs sould be based on faster things like key vlaue things<br>
[11:24 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but its how is it now :)<br>
[11:24 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: most searches in opesim are indexed searches, but it writes a lot and sizing the db for writes are the critical point<br>
[11:24 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: it's nice to be able to hand code a database query (and not have to learn a new language)<br>
[11:25 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: SQL Is a strange language :)<br>
[11:25 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: yup<br>
[11:25 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Not that strange.<br>
[11:25 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: gets the job done<br>
[11:26 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: agreed Andrew<br>
[11:26 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, it does.<br>
[11:26 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well fs assets jumps part of tis use<br>
[11:26 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: It can get wild if you need to do a query with joins across multiple tables.<br>
[11:26 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: yeah<br>
[11:26 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but still uses it for the metadata<br>
[11:27 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Joins are a way to avoid doing loops and multiple DB searches, so that is a good thing.<br>
[11:27 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: eats CPU<br>
[11:27 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: fs assets is a performance trap<br>
[11:28 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, I'm not saying they aren't useful but the statements can get complicated to write and read.<br>
[11:28 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: performance trap?<br>
[11:29 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: bc hte hashes?<br>
[11:29 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: because it involves a general file system<br>
[11:29 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is slow<br>
[11:29 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well things do endup on the file system sooner or later<br>
[11:30 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: sure sure dbs bring own filesystem<br>
[11:30 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: some dbs...<br>
[11:30 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: db writes to the fs in different ways than writing a gernal file<br>
[11:31 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and as I said, the db needs to be tuned for writes and writes of small records<br>
[11:31 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: now and then i consider making a hibrid assets service<br>
[11:31 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: (remembers when ORACLE wanted its own raw filesystem so it could do its magic without OS interference)<br>
[11:31 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all general fs struggles with that<br>
[11:31 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: one using mysql for both metadata and blob<br>
[11:32 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: some dbs do use own filesystem jagga<br>
[11:32 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: usually a disk controller can only have one write transaction going to multiple disks on the controller at any time<br>
[11:33 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so you need to have multiple controllers to you can issue multiple writes conturrently<br>
[11:33 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: think one grid at least is using own assets service that stores both metadata and blobs on mysql<br>
[11:34 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but thats more abotu using same set of tools for backups etc<br>
[11:34 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and if your writes exeeds the ssd write cache, the ssd stalls dramatically and performs worse than spinning rust<br>
[11:34 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: amasing the number of ppl that does back fsassets and forgets the files.. only saving the sql<br>
[11:35 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: at least they can see all they have lost...<br>
[11:35 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: heh<br>
[11:35 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, :)<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: oh and a grid did move the assets service and dbs to other machine<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc forgot the files on the old box :p<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: good the old box was still up and well :)<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did they wipe the old box before  they realized?<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Jagga Meredith: oops<br>
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: nahh they where lucky Gavin.Hird<br>
[11:37 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good !<br>
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but jezz scary<br>
[11:37 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: If they didn't remember about the separate asset blobs they weren't getting backed up at all if there was a backup process in place for the databases.<br>
[11:38 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: backup methods are not that universal<br>
[11:38 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ppl need to use own<br>
[11:38 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: No, they aren't.<br>
[11:39 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well its just a detail..   very simple once ppl do remember :)<br>
[11:40 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks <i>nods</i><br>
[11:40 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we used to say Tivoli Storage Manager is what separates boys from men when it comes to backup<br>
[11:40 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/tsm?topic=SSGSG7/landing/welcome_ssgsg7.html<br>
[11:42 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I ran across something unexpected this past week.<br>
[11:43 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I upgraded a grid to master then got a request to enable HG access to one region but not let HG visitors access some other regions in the grid.<br>
[11:43 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: request from where/whom?<br>
[11:44 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I expected that regions not configured with HG support would not be accessible to an HG grid visitor but it seems that once someone gets in to an HG enabledregion they could go to any other region. Even to regions that were not configured with HG support.<br>
[11:44 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have seen the same<br>
[11:45 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have a welcome region that does not have HG access, but they still can go there<br>
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: HG is not a "enabled" thing<br>
[11:45 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I am not sure if that is a bug or a feature. I wound up creating a new estate and put the HG accessible regions under the new estate and made the other estate accessible by group only.<br>
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: HG was done replacing some methods ( using virtual/overide)<br>
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: a region does not even have a clear way to know if it does suport HG<br>
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that was just never considered, i guess<br>
[11:46 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: HG is an "enabled" thing because you need to use enable/configure it in Robust.ini and there are configuration settings for HG support in the ini files of the regions.<br>
[11:47 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: a grid was jsut assumed to be HG or not, or all HG<br>
[11:47 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: did you configure it in GridCommon.ini for the simulator?<br>
[11:47 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have an entry like this:<br>
[11:47 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: [AuthorizationService]
  ; If you have regions with access restrictions
    ; specify them here using the convention
    ; Region_<Region_Name> = <flags>
    ; Valid flags are:
    ; DisallowForeigners -- HG visitors not allowed
    ; DisallowResidents -- only Admins and Managers allowed
    ; Example:
     Region_Landfall = "DisallowForeigners"<br>
[11:47 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that is not as "Enabled = true" there not sucja thing<br>
[11:47 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I forgot at first to use the Robust with the HG settings so the region with the extra configuration was still not accessible until I updated Robust.ini<br>
[11:47 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but yeah i was going to tell there is some flag somewhere<br>
[11:48 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right, see my entry<br>
[11:48 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: like that DisallowForeigners<br>
[11:48 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: guess a major pain do manage<br>
[11:48 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: to<br>
[11:49 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: right<br>
[11:50 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: usually I have found it works, but there has been times where they could enter. It might have been because the system was in flux with repect to code revisions<br>
[11:50 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: guess any tp will just work<br>
[11:50 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-))<br>
[11:50 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: dunno need look to code<br>
[11:51 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, right. That setting lets you specify things on a region by region basis. It is a minor pain when you want to allow them in to only one region and not to any of the other ones. A Disallow would be needed for each of the other regions in the grid.<br>
[11:51 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can try after grid.xmir.org:8002:Landfall<br>
[11:51 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you should not be able to TP there, but...<br>
[11:52 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: nopes their are blocked<br>
[11:52 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: is it blocked?<br>
[11:53 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: autorization service does check that falg<br>
[11:53 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: flag<br>
[11:54 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: good<br>
[11:55 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: assuming that is defined :)<br>
[11:55 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Gridcommon.ini is the place to define it<br>
[11:56 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not sure<br>
[11:56 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: was looking for that<br>
[11:57 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: it is a total pain<br>
[11:57 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: should be on region.ini no?<br>
[11:57 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it would make more sense, yeah<br>
[11:57 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: string accessStr = config.GetString("Region_"   scene.RegionInfo.RegionName.Replace(' ', '_'), String.Empty);
                if (accessStr != string.Empty)
                {
                    try
                    {
                        m_accessValue = (AccessFlags)Enum.Parse(typeof(AccessFlags), accessStr);
                    }<br>
[11:57 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: bahhh<br>
[11:58 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: syntax<br>
[11:58 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hence: Region_Landfall = "DisallowForeigners"<br>
[11:58 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: private enum AccessFlags
        {
            None = 0,               /* No restrictions */
            DisallowResidents = 1,  /* Only gods and managers*/
            DisallowForeigners = 2, /* Only local people */
        }<br>
[11:58 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for the Landfall region<br>
[11:58 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: rigid almost useless crap<br>
[11:58 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is nothing wrong wiht the options<br>
[11:59 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is just stuck in a convoluted place<br>
[12:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well regions.ini is not easy to read on main ini code<br>
[12:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: guess that is why..<br>
[12:00 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. The time went by rather quickly this week. Any last minute comments/questions?<br>
[12:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but can be there, and stored on its structures<br>
[12:01 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is probably not used very often<br>
[12:01 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Region.ini cannot set values in the same dataset as OpenSim.ini, aren't they completely independant?<br>
[12:01 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: perhaps clarifying documentation with an example would be useful<br>
[12:01 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: region.ini is read on a dif dataset ues<br>
[12:01 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and yes..<br>
[12:02 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and at totally dif time<br>
[12:02 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but that does not mean its data can't be there alter<br>
[12:02 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: later<br>
[12:05 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: I've got to go, appointment to get to<br>
[12:05 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: If there are no last minute items for today I will call this meeting to a close.<br>
[12:05 PM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Bye all!<br>
[12:05 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.<br>
[12:05 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: TC Kayaker<br>
[12:05 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Kayaker.<br>
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[11:01 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. I'm sort of here. I'm having a late lunch so you can start without me and I'll return soon.<br>
[11:01 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: no worries... the cat will eat your lunch<br>
[11:02 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No commits this week, devs on vacation enjoying the summer :)<br>
[11:02 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: you mean melting on summer<br>
[11:02 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It is friggn hot yes<br>
[11:02 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, Fortunately, both cats are currently sleeping so my food would be safe.<br>
[11:02 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: 40C thins week they say<br>
[11:03 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: this..<br>
[11:03 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Something close to that for me too in a couple of days.<br>
[11:03 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: bbiab<br>
[11:03 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Approaching 30 here as well, inside that is, impossible to exist without AC, the servers would melt<br>
[11:03 AM PT]  Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: we're having trouble geting to 23C<br>
[11:04 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: late fiusa once was also sleeping like a angel...  when i looked again she was happy draging half a chicken of my lunch almost bigger then her<br>
[11:04 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: XD<br>
[11:04 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Typical cat behavior<br>
[11:04 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Aw.<br>
[11:04 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeah<br>
[11:05 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I figured out how to do region impostors for OS, if anybody cares,<br>
[11:05 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)<br>
[11:05 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Without asset spam I hope<br>
[11:05 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Not that many.<br>
[11:06 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: oh jeez<br>
[11:06 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: OS doesn't have a huge mainland, like SL. Biggest cluster of contiguous regions seems to be about 100 on OSGrid. Is that right?<br>
[11:07 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have 500 connected as a large ocean<br>
[11:07 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: oh that depends on the grid<br>
[11:07 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Equivalent to 13000 normal regions<br>
[11:07 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: some cluster around lbsa<br>
[11:07 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: some gris do have "mainland" like areas<br>
[11:07 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think you underestimate the asset spam we already have, adding on to it isn't helpful<br>
[11:07 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We already store terrain map images in assets for some reason<br>
[11:07 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello *smiles*<br>
[11:07 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Why, it's one asset per region.<br>
[11:07 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hi lyr.Lobo<br>
[11:08 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah same for the terrain images, but it's a new asset every update<br>
[11:08 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They aren't cleaned automatically<br>
[11:08 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Are all 500 connected regions the same size?<br>
[11:08 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 1024x1024m<br>
[11:09 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: OK, no problem. I have two cases. 1) all regions same size, can have 4x, 16x, 64x impostors.<br>
[11:09 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: 2) regions differ in sizes, 1x only.<br>
[11:09 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I just don't get why you wouldn't just store the impostors locally on the viewer side instead of burdening the server with them. It has the capacity to generate meshes and textures at a much better rate than the poor server CPU would given viewers require a GPU<br>
[11:10 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Because the viewer has to get the impostors from somewhere.<br>
[11:10 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes, locally, from the hdd<br>
[11:10 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: what is a lets say 64x impostor ?<br>
[11:11 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: 8 regions x 8 regions, very far away.<br>
[11:11 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: in your concept that is..<br>
[11:11 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: you merge regions??<br>
[11:11 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Yes, although I have most of this in test.<br>
[11:12 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: The region impostors are currently just terrain - an elevatiom map with a texture.<br>
[11:12 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: No buildings yet.<br>
[11:12 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: But you can see faraway mountains.<br>
[11:12 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: It's mostly fo SL, but I want to support OS too.<br>
[11:12 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Let's say the impostors are 1mb and you have 1000 regions, that's 1gb in assets just for that. Each update it may generate a new one due to rounding errors so sends a 1mb asset to the server. Restarts daily that's another 350mb each year<br>
[11:13 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Storage don't grow on trees<br>
[11:13 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I'm thinking weekly updates.<br>
[11:13 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: How would the region unless it kept track of the last impostor it stored somehow<br>
[11:14 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: ?<br>
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hwo are you "decimating" the terrain ?<br>
[11:14 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: The plan is that updating is done by a bot.<br>
[11:14 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: oh jeez<br>
[11:14 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Terrain is reduced by usual mesh reduction.<br>
[11:15 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Again, thiis is mostly for SL.<br>
[11:15 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Long distance travel on land isn't a big thing in OS.<br>
[11:15 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hwo do you fectch the mesh? go there fetch the heighmap?<br>
[11:15 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: stop telling that...<br>
[11:16 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: For display, it's a mesh asset and a texture,<br>
[11:16 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: you are making a assumption only bades on a s few grids you did visit<br>
[11:16 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: based<br>
[11:16 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: How about this. I can make you some changes to the http handlers on the grid side so you can use get_region to query regions around the one you are on and get a return for their http address. Then I'll add a http handler that returns the region heightmap and the maptile image. From that you generate a mesh with the maptile applied to it, locally, on the viewer end and store that in local cache folder. That won't get you buildings, but it's a start<br>
[11:16 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Yes.<br>
[11:17 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: you can't assume tehre aren't large clusters of regoins on opensim<br>
[11:17 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Yes, some way to get  hiight maps would help.<br>
[11:17 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well you only need to put a child agent there :)<br>
[11:17 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Are there large clusters of regions on opensim?<br>
[11:17 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but that is connection :)<br>
[11:18 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: https://zetaworlds.com/map?x=7380<br>
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: btw regions view range is also a opensim setting<br>
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: regions can be told to tell viewers to connect very far...<br>
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and ofc BUMMM<br>
[11:19 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Mixed sized regions technically in view distance yes, I worry about that each time I see that on the map<br>
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hmm ll region terrain tesslation is pretty bad<br>
[11:19 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Do mixed sized regions touching even work in OS?<br>
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: nearby regions terrain shape changes a lot as we walk closer<br>
[11:19 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back. Catching up...<br>
[11:20 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: The C   viewers only support one touching region per side.<br>
[11:20 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Apart from crossings and teleport routing getting funky you can technically put them next to each other, but the viewer will not like it at all<br>
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc they do.. as long there is only one per side<br>
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but i tols nothing about muxed size<br>
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( wakeup keyboard .. )<br>
[11:20 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Putting a single region next to a larger one generally tends to work most of the time, but two vars is just explosions during crossings half the time<br>
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but i told nothing about mixed sized<br>
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: no they do not explode<br>
[11:21 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: For impostors, there's no real need to impostor water-only regions.<br>
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: my test region is a 1km region with a 256m next to it<br>
[11:22 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yes that works better, but two different size vars not so much<br>
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: for ages<br>
[11:22 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The crossings often end up at 0,0<br>
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: all works fine<br>
[11:22 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Something in the position calculation gets weird<br>
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: as long as there is only one per side<br>
[11:22 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I actually support arbitrary touching regions in the current Sharpview but the C   viewers don't.<br>
[11:23 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeah they dont<br>
[11:23 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I see places on the OSGrid map where that appears, but I never found those regions live when I went there.<br>
[11:24 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: osg map is not updated<br>
[11:24 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Anyway, I can look into extending the http handlers so you can do get_region_by_position on the public handler as well. Region side something to get_heightmap, the maptile should already be requestable through some handler, forgot which one but its there<br>
[11:24 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I know.<br>
[11:24 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Vincent, thanks.<br>
[11:24 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so you may see things not real<br>
[11:24 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If you need specific region cases to test I'll set them up on zw for you to test that's easy enough<br>
[11:24 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: If there's a place on OSGrid where I can see two regoins alongside anohter region I'd like to go visit it.l<br>
[11:25 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: there used to be a "mainland" around lbsa area<br>
[11:25 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc "mailand" is more lag.. so ppl just prefer isolation<br>
[11:26 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I saw that on the map but could not get there.<br>
[11:26 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right. Isolated regions, no problem for impostors - they're not impostored at all.<br>
[11:26 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: You can't see them from far away.<br>
[11:26 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well my test regions are just 1km north :)<br>
[11:27 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: errr 512m ?<br>
[11:27 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: my test regions here<br>
[11:28 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: on my local grid one is 256m<br>
[11:28 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: See with doing the impostors on viewer end via requesting the region heightmap a user that doesn't want theirs shown can turn that off or leave on if they want to be visible even with empty water between the regions<br>
[11:28 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It gives privacy control to the region owner<br>
[11:29 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: how many truis do the impostors have?<br>
[11:29 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and uniform x,y sizes? or variable ?<br>
[11:29 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right. Won't even try to map anything smaller than 2x2 regions. No need for impostors.<br>
[11:30 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: How many tris? Right now, about 1024 for terrain.<br>
[11:30 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Working on better impstors for urban areas using Open Drone Map.<br>
[11:30 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: uniform density or varialble?<br>
[11:30 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: They get mesh reduced like everything else.<br>
[11:31 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Flat regions are really cheap.<br>
[11:31 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: everything else is not a thing on c   viewers :)<br>
[11:31 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Oh, right, mesh upload for OS lacks Havok.<br>
[11:31 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: diferent things have dif tessalation ( prior to gpus based tesselation )<br>
[11:32 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: duhhh havoc means nothing on t6hat<br>
[11:33 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: think i told many times that they use hacd  mesh tools on that<br>
[11:34 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: something many others use.. or used<br>
[11:34 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: OK. More to say about mesh reduction in future..<br>
[11:34 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: anf that is on mesh upload   automatic LOD<br>
[11:35 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( or worse convex decomposition for physcis, that mostly is a fail )<br>
[11:35 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but viewers do more tessaltion...<br>
[11:35 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: liek on terrain...<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: prims also have lods..<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: all diferent ways..<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so i asked :)<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: If you're into convex decomposition, there's now approximate convex decomposition. Some overlap is allowed, which results in fewer awful cases.<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: this was donbe before GPU based tessaltion<br>
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well convex decomp is other topic, for now just not recomended for opensim<br>
[11:37 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: OK.<br>
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ubode does not use convex..  bullet does its own decomposion<br>
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and physics is unrelated to view<br>
[11:38 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right.<br>
[11:38 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: SL is moving away from Havok and is looking at options.<br>
[11:40 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: C# has options for at least two other physics engines, at least bindings exist for them, just needs a wrapper in OpenSim code to use them<br>
[11:40 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Easier said than done<br>
[11:40 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Enough from me for today. Thanks.<br>
[11:40 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: guess other option is physX<br>
[11:40 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but that is kinda nvidia thing<br>
[11:40 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not clear how open is or will stay<br>
[11:41 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: bullet seems pretty dead<br>
[11:41 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: many games endup using own engines<br>
[11:41 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Bullet stll gettig updates and bumped their rev a year ago<br>
[11:41 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: some derivatives of cryengine etc<br>
[11:41 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: nahh only a python nonsense<br>
[11:42 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: core engine is pretty dead<br>
[11:42 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is bepuphysics and joltphysics that have bindings for C#<br>
[11:43 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: bepu is actually C# itself<br>
[11:43 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well that is for crap #<br>
[11:43 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: crap c#<br>
[11:43 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not for programs made in proper languages<br>
[11:43 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ;)<br>
[11:43 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Dunno I have not tried either of them to see how they perform, but the demos look okay<br>
[11:44 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: all demos look ok<br>
[11:44 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The OpenSim demos I have seen beg to differ xD<br>
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: think unreal used physX now move to own Chaos engine<br>
[11:45 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Wouldl be cool if SL and OS migrate to same engine<br>
[11:46 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but unlikely<br>
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ubity is PhysX<br>
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ubity ?? lol<br>
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ubity<br>
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: unity!!<br>
[11:46 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yes *smiles*<br>
[11:46 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ubITY<br>
[11:46 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Pardon me, will be afk a bit ...thank you for the meeting<br>
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: what opensim engine? ppl keep using bullet<br>
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: others ubode<br>
[11:55 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and ODE is even older than bullet ...<br>
[11:56 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( i mean the engines.. not their use in opensim )<br>
[11:57 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Bullet not being maintained is kinda scary<br>
[11:57 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well not really<br>
[11:57 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: simple physics did change..<br>
[11:58 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: din't<br>
[11:58 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: does not go to web.. has no use for certs...<br>
[11:58 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: no real reason for updates..<br>
[11:59 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: except possible some new CPU instructions..<br>
[11:59 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: all very questionable anyways<br>
[12:00 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting. Thanks all.<br>
[12:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: have fun<br>
[12:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well we are in the hour also<br>
[12:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: any topic?<br>
[12:01 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: nothing new here... I do need to go RL<br>
[12:01 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: We seem to be all talked out for today and we are at the top of the hour.<br>
[12:02 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I will call this meeting to a close. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.<br>
[19:02 UTC]   <b>*** Logging stopped. ***</b><br>
[18:05 UTC]   <b>*** Logging started. ***</b><br>
[11:05 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.<br>
[11:05 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew<br>
[11:05 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hi<br>
[11:05 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I was delayed by a couple of household chores and a cat.<br>
[11:05 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I currently have one standing on my lap.<br>
[11:06 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)<br>
[11:06 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: bye a scanner..  mien is sleeping on mine<br>
[11:07 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc that did nto work with fiusa..  she did want lap also  :)<br>
[11:07 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well..  code changes..  yes.. there where some<br>
[11:08 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I have stuff piled on top of my scanner. No room for a cat. :)<br>
[11:08 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: the pimmesher.dll used on map, beening almost like Dalhias github where not visible<br>
[11:09 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so i decided to merge that into our fork of libopenmetaverse<br>
[11:09 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: then made several changes like changing its Coord adn Quat to libomv Vector3 and quaternion<br>
[11:09 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: etc<br>
[11:10 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: of them made several "cosmetic" changes<br>
[11:10 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that also extended to decoder of sl mesh asset that is on another part of libomv<br>
[11:11 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: them updated CSJ2K for the very old 0.9.x to very modern 3.0<br>
[11:11 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: to findout that most changes are pure useless<br>
[11:11 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: in fact broken<br>
[11:11 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: oh?<br>
[11:12 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so removed a lot of that garbage and appled bac fixes from lkalif anf hurlima<br>
[11:12 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hurliman<br>
[11:12 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and ofc changed even more<br>
[11:12 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)<br>
[11:13 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: tried to make the use of k2k discard level to work..<br>
[11:13 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I see you had fun<br>
[11:13 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: completly broken on that<br>
[11:13 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but now everything works?<br>
[11:13 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: of then went to break warp3d map<br>
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: making use of discard levels<br>
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so we do not decode a 1024 tex to then scale down to 256px<br>
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: now it is only decoded to 256px directly<br>
[11:15 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I should run some tests how performance changed on that on some of the heavy regions I have<br>
[11:15 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that is one of the few advantages og jpeg2000<br>
[11:16 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: of made changes on sculptmaps ( part of that primmesher<br>
[11:16 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: sculpts with alpha where not showing on map<br>
[11:17 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: if you look to map, you can now see those ugly pink steps south of us<br>
[11:17 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: like sculpted trees you mean?<br>
[11:18 AM PT]  Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: ow<br>
[11:18 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002: Hello *smiles*<br>
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: many did work.. but soem creators add alpha to hide the map<br>
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and that was not working<br>
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: moslty bc we use Bitmap so scale now<br>
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so.. that cleared all RGB also :)<br>
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel i made CSJ"K to also skip alpha channel on demand<br>
[11:19 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Sounds like more memory<br>
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: csj2k even<br>
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so it returns a 24bpprgb bitmap for those<br>
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i plan to totally remove bitmap from sculpts<br>
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: in fact from the all map generator<br>
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: except convertion to png and similar<br>
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but not today :)<br>
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: for nwo csj2k does return bitmap<br>
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i removed the crap new  broken format they added<br>
[11:22 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Can merge that along with the map rendering changes I still have to contribute<br>
[11:22 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Might as well break it all at once :)<br>
[11:23 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)<br>
[11:23 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well that was it, mostly :)<br>
[11:24 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: That was a lot for one week.<br>
[11:25 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No wonder it was so warm, Ubit overheated :)<br>
[11:25 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: hehe<br>
[11:29 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ANy other news for today?<br>
[11:30 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not from me. been very busy RL the last 14 days<br>
[11:31 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I know what you mean, Gavin. I have a work project that needs to be done asap. It has taken a lot of my time. Almost done with it so I'll have time to get back to other things soon.<br>
[11:32 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: assuming cat lets  you<br>
[11:32 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)  yes, there is that.<br>
[11:32 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: In July the rain usually is pissing down the whole month, so time to be indoors<br>
[11:32 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: rest of year is ice :)<br>
[11:32 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not were I am<br>
[11:33 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we had snow cover 5 days this winter<br>
[11:33 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)<br>
[11:33 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You know the climate is messed up when we had more snow down here, yikes<br>
[11:33 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: in the UK?<br>
[11:34 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Germany<br>
[11:34 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I'm at the end of a 3 day heat wave. Feels like 43C outside today.<br>
[11:34 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is normal<br>
[11:34 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we have the Gulf current gracing our coast, so it is very mild for the lattitude<br>
[11:34 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: inland they have snow<br>
[11:35 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: While logging in to here I saw mention of a new version of 7.1.13 Firestorm. Has anyone tried it yet?<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: trum my decide to add tarifs to the golf of america current<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Gulf<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc no idea where that gulf is<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Seems to be the texture decoding has gotten worse in these versions whenever avatars loading in seeing long frame times, something being looked into though<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-))<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well yeah byt he also likes golf :)<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: he has it framed in his golden office<br>
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well my code changes have nothing to do with avatars<br>
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well and that is viewer side :)<br>
[11:38 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc now many  may be using 2k textures<br>
[11:38 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lots of them<br>
[11:38 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: oen needs to see your hair well<br>
[11:38 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or the gemstone on your ring<br>
[11:39 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeap<br>
[11:39 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: one very blingy pixel<br>
[11:39 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yr hair should be 2k  alpha only tex<br>
[11:41 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: like the fiber mesh beard I made once with tens of thousands of strands textured each with 2k textures<br>
[11:41 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: lags so much your head can barely move, hehe<br>
[11:42 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002 <i>smiles</i><br>
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: on those j2k changes ofc i did look to our openjpeg<br>
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that should be faster..<br>
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but ofc needs to be compiled on every target platform<br>
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and the code is unreadable :)<br>
[11:46 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Oh, has OpenJPEG improved?<br>
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: no i mean our fork of it<br>
[11:46 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: OK.<br>
[11:47 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: like try to make use id discard level on it also<br>
[11:47 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why is it unreadable?<br>
[11:47 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: csj2k code not only is C# but also C# that is direct conversion from java<br>
[11:48 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: var names with 3 letters at most :)<br>
[11:48 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and big savings on \n  packing a lot of code per line<br>
[11:48 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: typical old C :)<br>
[11:49 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: variable names sizes have big impact on performance<br>
[11:49 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: .. during compilation :P<br>
[11:49 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right.<br>
[11:50 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Where does the simulator side use discard level in JPEGs?<br>
[11:50 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: That's mostly a viewer thing.<br>
[11:50 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i added that use<br>
[11:51 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it does if you use tape to store  the result of each compiler pass I guess<br>
[11:51 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: why decode to 1024px when we wat 256 ?<br>
[11:51 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: mostly on map<br>
[11:51 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Other than scuplts, what does the simulator use JPEGs for?<br>
[11:51 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: map<br>
[11:51 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Oh, right.<br>
[11:54 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Would you say trunk is stable now or still working on adjustments with the new code?<br>
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: trunk stable?? since when ??<br>
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :p<br>
[11:54 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)<br>
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well seems as we chat, it is working<br>
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: we are on it<br>
[11:55 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: osg did a release in middle of that.. ofc with a bug on ubode sculpts..  oops<br>
[11:55 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: was replaced already<br>
[11:56 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002 <i>grins and nods</i><br>
[11:57 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel we don't do ll trees on map..  if you asked that gavin.Hird<br>
[11:58 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Does ubODE unmanaged lib need to be rebuilt?<br>
[11:58 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sort of, but there are other sculpted trees around too still<br>
[11:58 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: kinda of a pain to add that procedural tree generator<br>
[11:58 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I can see that<br>
[11:58 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: no  cuga.Rajal<br>
[11:58 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: changes where on managed code<br>
[11:58 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not that I want them, because it would obscure everything else on the map<br>
[11:59 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well guess not many use them<br>
[11:59 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: they should be a lot better<br>
[11:59 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but ll likes the Mesh $$$<br>
[11:59 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: indeed<br>
[12:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: one tree is 25 UDP bytes to send ( plus textures mostly on viewers native caches )<br>
[12:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: same from grass<br>
[12:00 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting<br>
[12:01 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. Thanks for dropping by.<br>
[12:01 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: very light weight compared to a mesh tree or even sculpt tree<br>
[12:01 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: one day he will type after log out :p<br>
[12:01 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: .. will type bye.. :)<br>
[12:02 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc viewers do need to render them..<br>
[12:02 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Any last minute items for today?<br>
[12:02 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: generate the meshes etc<br>
[12:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but vegetation is a important part of many regions<br>
[12:03 PM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002: Thank you all for your support! Have a great week!<br>
[12:03 PM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002: Thanks, Ubit.<br>
[12:03 PM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @vharmonyarts.com:8002 <i>grins</i><br>
[12:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)<br>
[12:03 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Lyr.<br>
[12:04 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: would be boring without vegetation unless you have a Mars themed region<br>
[12:04 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: hehe<br>
[12:04 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Or desert area<br>
[12:04 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel or artic<br>
[12:05 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or endless snow<br>
[12:05 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: desrts have oasis<br>
[12:05 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: endless ocean for that sake<br>
[12:06 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well impressive the vegetation some games now have<br>
[12:06 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, but they support instantiation<br>
[12:06 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hi dino<br>
[12:07 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I need to head out. Have a great week everyone<br>
[12:07 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so the rendering load is comparatively lower<br>
[12:07 PM PT]  Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: ow<br>
[12:07 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Cuga.<br>
[12:08 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok rl calls<br>
[12:08 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: for me too<br>
[12:08 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have a great week all<br>
[12:08 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: We are just past the hour and as people are leaving I will draw this meeting to a close.<br>
[12:08 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: see you all next week if not before :)<br>
[12:08 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.<br>
[12:08 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: cheers<br>
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[11:03 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.<br>
[11:03 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Hello Andrew!<br>
[11:03 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hmm or it is my crap edge?<br>
[11:04 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You use edge? Unironically?<br>
[11:04 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Absolute madlad<br>
[11:04 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: and on purpose<br>
[11:04 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: rawdogging the internet like it's 1998<br>
[11:04 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: hahaha<br>
[11:05 AM PT]  Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I was pointing that out to so,eome yesterday.  Nobody has accessed the internet directly since NAT<br>
[11:05 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: duhh my edge was fast sending me to a odd page<br>
[11:06 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: sounds about right<br>
[11:07 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: No new commits since last week looks like<br>
[11:09 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I have nothing today. I'm testing that impostor thing I talked about.<br>
[11:10 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: Ohh nm it is the page of namecheap<br>
[11:10 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: "The domain has expired. Is this your domain? Renew now"<br>
[11:10 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That better be a joke<br>
[11:11 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: guess mel forgot to renew it<br>
[11:12 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It expired today<br>
[11:12 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: what domain?<br>
[11:13 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: our opensimulator.org<br>
[11:14 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Uh oh.<br>
[11:14 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I'm surprised it isn't set for automatic renewal.<br>
[11:14 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Cool, she has what like two weeks to renew or the domain enters the open market to be bought by some chinese hackers<br>
[11:16 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: godaddy was a name service known to snap up expired domains.<br>
[11:16 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Yes, I just looked.  You can still renew but not for much longer.<br>
[11:17 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If they have, good luck getting that back<br>
[11:19 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks <i>nods</i><br>
[11:20 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Looks like not much to do here today, so I will leave early. Thanks all.<br>
[11:20 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: take care, Joe<br>
[11:20 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. Thanks for dropping by.<br>
[11:21 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: with our holiday on Friday, many are out on vacation<br>
[11:21 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: It is Canada Day today.<br>
[11:21 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have honestly had it with both mel and diva being a detriment to the project and effectively holding things hostage to their incompetence. From not renewing servers and now domains, to writing problematic code and not actually doing anything for the last 3  years. They should no longer be involved in making decisions or be the ones holding the critical infrastructure hostage. Forgive my directness, but this is utterly unprofessional and disgusting towards the developers and contributors to the project.<br>
[11:22 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: try again, working now<br>
[11:23 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: All registrars send out multiple emails regarding renewal, same with the server itself, to not see them is just plain incompetence<br>
[11:23 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not for me<br>
[11:29 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Why is she and diva allowed to hold the project hostage like this. Being at the mercy of whether they remember to pay for things, potentially erasing decades of work. That's messed up<br>
[11:29 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: My registrar sends out a renewal notice a month before and if I ignored it they automatically put through payment for the next 2 years.<br>
[11:30 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can pay ten damn years in advance and a .com isn't that expensive<br>
[11:30 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The server is with hetzner, which allows adding funds to the account so it automatically pays for things instead of having to pay each month manually<br>
[11:31 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Both mel and diva have not submitted any code in years. The latter wouldn't even fix the recursion issue in wifi, just merging my bandaid that I clearly stated needs code revision<br>
[11:32 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Mel going as far as admitting on irc that she has no idea how to properly configure the most basic anti spam floor measure there is, leaving Ubit to manually ban whatever was flooding the webserver this week<br>
[11:33 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm sorry to be so open, but this shit really makes me mad. It's disrespectful to Ubit being the sole developer now and all the contributors spending hours and days of their time trying to fix things and further the project<br>
[11:33 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Only to be held back by these two to the point it all runs outdated software now waiting to have an RCE completely nuke everything<br>
[11:34 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Are there even backups of anything critical like wiki and mantis?<br>
[11:35 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hmm Updated Date: 2025-07-01T17:51:27Z
Creation Date: 2007-07-01T17:46:52Z
Registry Expiry Date: 2026-07-01T17:46:52Z<br>
[11:35 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I hope there is but I couldn't tell you where they are kept.<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: seems it was updated ??<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i still get sent to the expired site<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Great work mel, now renew it for 9 more years so at least we are safe from your incompetence for that time, hopefully by then someone with a brain can take over<br>
[11:36 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: not me<br>
[11:37 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: been working for a few minutes now<br>
[11:37 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: DNS records can take some time to propogate.<br>
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: this the tmp expire entry should have a low tls...  but seems still on my cache<br>
[11:38 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: can you open it now?<br>
[11:38 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: yep, that's edge<br>
[11:38 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: i'm on it<br>
[11:38 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: it's open<br>
[11:38 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i also did resart the machie<br>
[11:38 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: been open since 22 minutes after the hour<br>
[11:38 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The joys of cached dns records not obeying their renewal times<br>
[11:38 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Welcome to Windows<br>
[11:40 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Depends on the TTL values that were set.<br>
[11:41 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Windows ignores them quite often<br>
[11:41 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Hence why dynamic dns is so problematic for running a grid on when the dns needs to update to a new IP, but all the caches just don't pull the new info<br>
[11:42 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: TTL is a suggestion, not a requirement unfortunately<br>
[11:43 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I actually have something to address this week so before I get an aneurysm...<br>
[11:43 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Are there a lot of DNS being run on servers running Windows?<br>
[11:44 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, if you have another topic of discussion go ahead.<br>
[11:44 AM PT]  Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm on Mac.  I'm getting namecheap<br>
[11:44 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I wrote about this at length in an article, the short form being apparently a lot of people out there are not enforcing the minimum requirements for avatar names. Names with áccènted characters or names that are only 2 characters long. In the best case you just can't search for those users, worst case is the encoding breaks expecting utf and receiving unicode resulting in the bytes just being placed in IMs and creator uui's<br>
[11:45 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is some enforcement in the create user routine to prevent entry of HG related chars, but no alphanumeric check<br>
[11:45 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Similarly many systems, such as again friggn diva wifi, don't enforce that either<br>
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hmm i see the wrong dns also on google<br>
[11:46 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's not directly breaking things in the sense of data corruption although it technically falls under that criteria<br>
[11:46 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Also no minimum password requirements, not even in length<br>
[11:47 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: As much as that's an issue on the user end, enforcing proper names should definitely be done just to maintain some level of compatibility<br>
[11:47 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, the IP address appears to be wrong at this time (for me). I can't access the machine. The IP resolves to something in bodis.com<br>
[11:47 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm trying to make some changes to wifi to fix this for anyone that runs that given diva no longer seems to care much for it, but with any other system that directly inserts data into the DB the maintainers of that will need to enforce some standards<br>
[11:48 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: working now and set to auto renew, Andrew<br>
[11:48 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Impressive, she found the button for that on her own?<br>
[11:48 AM PT]  Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks<br>
[11:48 AM PT]  Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: hasn't propagated to here (Canada)<br>
[11:49 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A small regex check for the names and their length should be enough and trivial to implement<br>
[11:50 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: For anyone wishing to read the specifics: https://zetaworlds.com/blog/view/opensim-naming-standards<br>
[11:51 AM PT]  Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: password complexity check might be an idea.  Mine's a common name (nostalgia's sake)<br>
[11:51 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i see it "broken" everywhere on nslookup<br>
[11:51 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( i mean our dns )<br>
[11:52 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: A min length of 12 chars would be a start, but the name problem is frankly much bigger, because the only way to really fix that up is to change the name of the avatar, which has it's own problems<br>
[11:52 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: IMO, it would be good to restrict avatar names to something that can be typed without too much difficulty. The use of accented and special characters is one of the reasons I don't want to see support for display names. How do you talk with someone whose name you can't type in.<br>
[11:52 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You then need to change the creator uui everywhere as well, which is a huge pain<br>
[11:52 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The serialized IM requires it to be utf8 so when it's given unicode it just dumbs the bytes as you can see in the article<br>
[11:54 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You can't really fix this unless all grids that got bad data are contacted and told what to do to rectify the issue otherwise content might still get shared over HG with bad data in it<br>
[11:55 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Already a massive issue, so every bit that can be done to avoid bad data, especially something simple like this is worth doing in my opinion<br>
[11:56 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well i still see our domain as opensimulator.org.    259    CNAME    77980.bodis.com<br>
[11:57 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and bodis, com seems to be dns trader<br>
[11:57 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: bahh<br>
[11:58 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hmm or dns parking service<br>
[11:58 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: anyways, still very broken<br>
[12:01 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I have some untested changes for wifi in my fork of that to fix both that recursion issue and enforce some basic standards for the names and even passwords, don't really have the setup or willingness to test those though<br>
[12:01 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Probably should mirror the alphanumeric check for names into core<br>
[12:02 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: While technically underscores and hyphens might be fine, not sure<br>
[12:02 PM PT]  Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: definitely not periods<br>
[12:04 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Ubit, that's what I'm seeing.<br>
[12:05 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, We can make recommendations to grids but I think it would still be up to them to determine what they would allow in the names of their avatars.<br>
[12:05 PM PT]  Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: Non-authoritative answer:
opensimulator.org    canonical name = 77980.bodis.com.<br>
[12:05 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Most that have cusotm web interfaces will need to implement proper names yeah<br>
[12:05 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Just hope they sanitize the supplied names to avoid SQL injection issues.<br>
[12:08 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: We are now past the hour mark. Any thing more regarding names, Vincent?<br>
[12:08 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Nope<br>
[12:08 PM PT]  Jagga.Meridith @hg.zetaworlds.com: Isn't SQL injection like a 20-year old issue?<br>
[12:11 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, It is a widely know issue and web site and DB admins should know how to avoid the problem. Doesn't mean all sites are secured against them. Buffer overflow issues in code have been known for decades yet they often get found up in new code.<br>
[12:12 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, ty Vincent.<br>
[12:12 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Any other topics for today before we go our separate ways until this time next week?<br>
[12:15 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Some discussions re: domain name and servers will need to take place. I hope the name server info gets updated soon to point to the OS server.<br>
[12:15 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: That will do it for this week. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.<br>
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