[17:59 UTC] *** Logging started. *** [10:59 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone. [10:59 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hi [10:59 AM PT] Jagga Meredith: waves [11:00 AM PT] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: hey everybody [11:00 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: In this weeks news, Ubit working on dotnet6 support and I'm trying to figure out why physics are broken [11:01 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, hold off for now. I was going to wait to see if Selby or some other people are on their way. [11:02 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I ain't got much, still trying to figure out what exactly broke in the first place since there are like 20 physics related commits to audit [11:02 AM PT] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: hi everyone [11:02 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Selby. [11:03 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, sounds like some rounds with git bisect are in your future. [11:03 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well physics is not broken elsewhere [11:04 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah it's weird thing that, it happens on certain regions and not others [11:04 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Vincent, which physics engine is broken at your end? [11:04 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so possible sem use case that needs some more debug Vincent is telling is doing [11:04 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: some.. [11:05 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well you may some something diferent in this region air [11:05 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: also on the text over the bottle to my right [11:06 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: thing is that this region is running on dotnet 6.0, not mono [11:06 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: rest in peace XEngine [11:07 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i did changes so it can compile and then run under dotnet 6.0 [11:07 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: did commit them to the branch dotnet6 [11:07 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so others can test [11:08 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: as i otld here before, ms made this a big breaking change [11:08 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: dotnet6 lile core, etc is not a direct upgrade to .net framework 4.8 [11:09 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so we already lost some features, like XEngine and a few stats [11:10 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Which stats were lost? [11:10 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: thngs that did depend on code no longer present on the framework or jsut windows only [11:10 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: some that did depend on performance counters [11:10 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: only a few [11:11 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: The FPS and Script LPS stats still exist? [11:11 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yes [11:11 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: where a few "exotic ones" [11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: note that i said i made code compile and run in dotnet6.0 in fact, dotnet 60 plus a few support libraries [11:12 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, good. *FPS and Script LPS are the main ones of concern. Some of the other ones aren't of much interest for mostpeople. [11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: like System.Drawing.Commun [11:12 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that where removed on dotnet7.0 [11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but at least we have a foot on dotnet [11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and dotnet 6.0 has like 3 or 5 years of support still [11:13 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: while mono is just dead [11:13 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds good. Minor annoyance if you have to make more changes to handle .net 6 to .net 7 [11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that will be a even bigger change [11:14 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm sad to see mono die like this frankly, it had some good things going for it [11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: to replace al Bitmap code [11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ah hon linux, libgdiplus is needed [11:14 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: the simple way to get it is install mono 6 still :) [11:15 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: guess it has install packages on several distros, or can be localy compiled, somehow [11:15 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: something to see in near futute [11:15 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: not laso that ofc our code is mostly .net 1.0 that jsut happens still run on dotnet 6 :) [11:16 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: a lot of that code has now diferent ways of doing the same, in many cases faster [11:16 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but that is optimization stage.. [11:17 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: First need to get the most vital parts back in working order heh [11:17 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well System.drawi replacement will be a pain [11:18 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, Kayaker. [11:18 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: also on libopenmetaverse ofc [11:18 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: all the openjpeg support needed even to lludp textures send, map etc [11:19 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and realy draw like on dynamic textures [11:19 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that may just mean a major rewrite using another library [11:19 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: meanwhile.. who knoes maybe ms decides to suport it [11:20 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wouldn't hurt maybe we can then finally get drawing on existing textures [11:20 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: the are also making a new UI thing to replace windows forms etc [11:20 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: called MAIU [11:20 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: is fi remembet [11:20 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Lots of potential for the introduction of bugs during the transition. It will require a lot of testing. [11:21 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that will need Some kind of drawing tools [11:21 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so.. we may just win by waiting [11:21 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: the news is that we did gain that time and can replace mono [11:21 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: You said the other day http and logging was broken as well [11:21 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: or gained some more time [11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeha but to a lesser extent [11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: we are using things they want us to replace by new ones [11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but the ones we have are still on .net7 i think [11:22 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so a lesser issue [11:23 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: looging, ofc hey added own logging now [11:23 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: they [11:23 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Does the new stuff have all the features needed, it's MS half expect deprecating old stuff and not providing one to one replacements is kinda their thing [11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well they kinda hard killed System.Drawing on 7 [11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: even did it on 6 [11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but still a flag to allow it [11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc i mean killed for linux.. [11:24 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: it is there windows only [11:24 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: But MS loves linux (sarcasm) [11:25 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well they have a valid reason [11:25 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: Drawing is mostly a wrapper to windows libgdi [11:26 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: mono used/made? the libdidplus to emulate that windows one [11:26 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and that seems to be a very confusing code that depends or other linux libraries like pango and cairo, etc [11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so a big rats nest for ms devs to dig into and assume full responsability [11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: see? [11:27 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that is they main "excuse" and makes sense [11:28 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: their.. [11:28 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Oh noes, actual work... yeah they get paid to dig through that -.- [11:28 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: just a big issue for us :) [11:28 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc in the middle of all the other breaking changes.. just another one [11:28 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:30 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc if we could jsut decided to remove XEngine because AppDomains are gone, we can't do the same for openjpeg2k suport etc :) [11:30 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: I'm fine with removing XEngine! [11:30 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and we could do that because YEngine seems fine [11:31 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: kay this region is running in dotnet6 [11:31 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: Cool! [11:31 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: like that fisrt line of test to yr left tells [11:31 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: of text!! [11:31 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: There will be people who will complain about the disappearance of XEngine. [11:31 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ... X64/Unit/Dotnet [11:31 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i added x64 also [11:32 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: bc dotnet6 can see some cpus [11:32 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well tell [11:33 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well that is mostly all recent code work [11:33 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: don't remember if did any fix on master [11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so to recap, branch dotnet6 id for dotnet6.0 [11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: will smoke badly on mono :p [11:34 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Don't think it even compiles on that anymore [11:34 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: https://bitbucket.org/opensimulator/opensim/src/dotnet6/BUILDING.md [11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i changed prebuild so it creates project files for dotnet [11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: as i said big deep breaking change [11:35 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: very bad news.. [11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: all modules out there will not work etc [11:36 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ouch. [11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: they also need to migrate [11:36 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: in same cases not that hard [11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: as you can see on git, nly a few changes where needed [11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: dotnet 6.0 does rum (most) .net 1.0 code :) [11:37 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: even runs [11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: plug modules osgrid uses for example do compile with just warnings [11:38 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: search and mutes that osgrid uses [11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: andrew here :) [11:39 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Good to know. [11:39 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: think i don't have them here, but lbsa is using them [11:39 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Needed to redo some of my modules anyways [11:40 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Is there any guide about migrating to .net 6/7? ] [11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: lbsa is running this for hmm let me see [11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: Server has been running since Sunday, 2022-10-02 15:59:40 That is an elapsed time of 1.19:40:45.2235274 [11:40 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: still alive :) [11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i can see that dotnet 6 GC is slower to react [11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: does let memory usage go higher [11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but does seem to release memory a lot better [11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: in mid to lopng term [11:41 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: I missed the start of this meeting, did you talk about image support on dotnet? Isn't bitmap not supported on Linux? [11:41 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: mid to long [11:42 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: still supported on dotnet 6 extra libraries [11:42 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and we need to install libgdiplau [11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and we need to install libgdiplus [11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: the simpler way is just to still install mono :P [11:43 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: it is a lot of libs for me to try to add to our distro [11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but a possibility [11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: no idea abotu macs [11:44 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: lets see if gavin and others can try and give some feedback [11:45 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks nods [11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: i did found some breaking changes like o strings compare, indexof etc [11:45 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: made a few fixes even for lsl [11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: posible more will be needed [11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well that is a breaking change ms does assume [11:46 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I will need to lookat how I would update my machine to .net 6. I may have to leave that until I update my installed distro to something more recent. The distro people broke the upgrade system so it pretty much forces a fresh install to upgrade. [11:46 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: very silly [11:47 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I'm thinking of switching to a Debian based distro. [11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: like ..indexof("\0") does return 0, even where there is no char 0 [11:47 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: used to return the correct -1 [11:48 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: I updated one of my Ubuntu 18.04 systems to dotnet, need to recall how to do that again... [11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: nad more cases on special utf8 chars [11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: its on url i pasted [11:48 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: https://bitbucket.org/opensimulator/opensim/src/dotnet6/BUILDING.md [11:48 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: That will introduce "bugs" in to lot of programs. [11:49 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: that is file BUILDIND.md on branch dotnet6 [11:49 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/download/dotnet/6.0 [11:49 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: so jsut a few apt comands [11:49 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: to set the source of the debs [11:49 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: then get the sdk and runtimes [11:50 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: IIRC, I have built mono in the past. I was hoping it would be a simple download of .net 6/7 packages but I can see what happens if I try and build it on my machine. [11:50 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: hrere we do have the sdk 6.0.401 i think [11:51 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I'll need to do that at some point to eliminate the warnings in some addon modules [11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: and NET Runtime 6.0.9 [11:51 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: opensim.log now does tell that [11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: 2022-10-03 22:38:52,448 INFO [STARTUP]: version: OpenSim 0.9.2.2 Yeti Dev 2022-10-03 22:38:52,449 INFO [STARTUP]: Operating system version: Microsoft Windows NT 10.0.22621.0, .NET platform Win32NT, Runtime 6.0.9 2022-10-03 22:38:52,452 INFO [STARTUP]: Processor Architecture: X64(le 64bit) [11:52 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: on my win :p [11:52 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I gave up a few days ago trying to get jenkins to play ball with dotnet6 it just didn't want to, have to revisit that at some point get some builds automated for testing [11:53 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's almost as if MS is trying to make it difficult to get it to work on linux [11:53 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: NO! [11:54 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: 022-10-03 14:45:15,098 INFO [STARTUP]: version: OpenSim 0.9.2.2 Yeti Dev bf257a9 2022-10-03 14:45:15,099 INFO [STARTUP]: Operating system version: Unix 4.19.0.21, .NET platform Unix, Runtime 6.0 .9 2022-10-03 14:45:15,099 INFO [STARTUP]: Processor Architecture: X64(le 64bit) [11:54 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: here [11:55 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: ahh all tests are dead :p [11:55 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: nuit ones [11:55 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: the script tests will be a pain [11:55 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: all depend on XEngine [11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: well and all will be a pain because are for obsolete nunit2.0 [11:56 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'm sure Andrew can help us with that [11:56 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: as you can see this region is using 493MB [11:56 AM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: hint hint shove shove [11:57 AM PT] Kayaker Magic: lol [11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: like 100 more than did on mono during meetings ? [11:57 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :) [11:57 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Nice seeing real memory usage stats. [11:57 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: but gc seems a lot better than mono.. like the windows one [11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: also does not leak threads as mono was doing [11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: just lets memory use go higher before acting [11:58 AM PT] Selby.Evans @grid.kitely.com:8002: Must go -- bye all [11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: this also means a bit less cpu use [11:58 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: cya selby.Evans [11:58 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: We are at the top of the hour. Are there any other questions before we wrap up todays meeting? [11:58 AM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Selby. Thanks for dropping by. [11:59 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: like now [11:59 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: it did not considered that selaby did left and released memory :) [11:59 AM PT] Ubit Umarov: selby [12:00 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: It dropped now [12:00 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: but well memory usage still grows in time.. it is GC still [12:01 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I took a look at groups finally, well I changed all the tables over to a different charset and all [12:01 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: How does memory usage behave when using Warp3D? [12:01 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: just peaks a bit more [12:01 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: So far nothing has blown up, but it doesn't seem faster either [12:01 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: If I can find the time I'll dig some more [12:02 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: like 100MB or less here [12:02 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: It used to be known for memory leaks. I was hoping that it is no worse under .net6 than before. [12:02 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: MEMORY STATISTICS Heap allocated to OpenSim : 102 MB Heap allocation rate (last/avg): 0.247/-0.125MB/s Process memory: Physical 495 MB Paged 0 MB Virtual 69281 MB Peak process memory: Physical 830 MB Paged 0 MB Virtual 78561 MB [12:02 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: nah hi fixed warp leaks ages ago [12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: i know no real memory leak on our code [12:03 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: GC just loses memory [12:03 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, I do seem to remember that they were fixed at last. Not a major issue if the memory usage peaks a little higher when using Warp3D with .net6 if it settles back down after the tiles have been generated. [12:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yes it is just because GC is slower to act [12:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: so save cpu [12:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: so to save.. [12:04 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: There is some leakage somewhere in scripts still, but that might be down to bad LSL code too. Have not been able to find the cause of that, just deleted a ton of scripts and then it stopped, not really keen on looking through about 1000 of them [12:04 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Usually it's list operations and state changes that cause memory to grow [12:04 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Copy operations mainly [12:04 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: script memory usage report does nto count [12:05 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: will nver be exact [12:05 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Over the course of a day it gained like 10% cpu and 200mb so some script was royally out of whack [12:05 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ok [12:06 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Not really something we can fix anyhow, just bad LSL code in the end [12:06 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 99% of regions run fine [12:06 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well dilemas now is where do keep devel [12:06 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: some code is now diferent [12:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: because diferent c# version 6 to 10 ? [12:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: or 11 [12:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and diferent framework [12:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: so the way of programming is diferent in some cases [12:07 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Maybe get dotnet6 branch working with all the core functionality, then backport what's possible to master, do a final release for 4.8 and then continue with dotnet6 [12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah [12:08 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Sounds like a plan. [12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: ofc next release will be master [12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: mono etc [12:09 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: RL is calling me! Good meeting, glad to see dotnet progress! [12:09 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That way it has a nice closure and we can do breaking changes without everyone losing their minds heh [12:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: not sure how many ppl outthere have machines that do not suport dotnet [12:09 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: buy all! [12:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: fill my paypar [12:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: :p [12:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: paypal [12:09 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Bye, Kayaker. See you next time. [12:09 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: We can't support everyone, especially not on platforms so ancient they are out of security updates [12:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: then i may buy something :p [12:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: duhh no 32bit on dotnet :( [12:10 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I need somethings from Amazon but I'm not going to get all. [12:10 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Anyone running 32bit these days should have their computers taken away [12:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: duhhh [12:11 PM PT] Jamie.Jordan @grid.kitely.com:8002: have a great week yall [12:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: opensim runs great and uses less mem on win [12:11 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Bye Jamie. [12:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: on win64 in 32bit [12:11 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: What's next, support for powerpc and ibm mainframes lol [12:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: as i said many times [12:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: z80 will be a bi thard [12:12 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks nods [12:12 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I'd go for a 6809. ;) [12:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah that was better [12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: just arrived 2 late and 2 expensive to get a big market share [12:13 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Similar thing happened with the 68000. [12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: yeah [12:13 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: All righty. Time to wrap up todays meeting. [12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: intel was very cleaver [12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: going 16bits first [12:13 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week. [12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: easier silicon [19:14 UTC] *** Logging stopped. ***