[18:01 UTC]   *** Logging started. ***
[11:01 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, everyone.
[11:02 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: Hi Andrew
[11:02 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo grins
[11:03 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Hello
[11:03 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Firestorm says it cannot find GLIBCXX_3.4.30. When I search, I have older versions and when I try to update it says "you already have the latest"
[11:04 AM PT]  orbert tatham: Ok, I will take a look
[11:04 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: guess you need to "jira" that
[11:04 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 20 is eol next year anyways so maybe time to upgrade
[11:04 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: I mentioned it to Beq, I'm going to try updating to Ubuntu 22.04 in my spare time.
[11:04 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well about last on code frontline
[11:05 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: I've been on Ubuntu 22.04 LTS for over a year. Works OK.
[11:05 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: I think I have some spare time scheduled for 2035
[11:05 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Wayland mode still iffy.
[11:05 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: made few fixes to terrain pbr code...
[11:05 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: was loosing one flag and minor things like that
[11:06 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: avatar hover was not working..
[11:06 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: lol
[11:06 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: turns out we had 2 service routines for a capability
[11:07 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: since.. aeons
[11:07 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: one with complete function.. other, not really
[11:08 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: for a lot of time the bad one was replaced be the good one at runtime in a pseudo random way
[11:08 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: somehow recently the bad one stated winning :)
[11:09 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: started wining that lotery, killing the feature
[11:09 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well removed that bad one
[11:10 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo smiles
[11:10 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: meanwhile, aven "some glitchs in the matrix"  firestorm added the fake cap VETPBR, fo our pbr terrain does work on fs beta
[11:11 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: one aspect not that nice is that regions have 2 sets of UUIDs for terrain..  than need respective generation of viewer to change
[11:12 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but guess better than grey land for all older viewers..
[11:12 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: also seems the ll pbr terrain render code does support for large size regions..
[11:13 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so only VETPBR is needed on those that follow that code base
[11:13 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: meanwhile and for those that follow fs code base,  Inventory has strange issues, a bit worse on Beta releases
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: with a clean cache  you will most likely get a crash
[11:14 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: yes, cannot clean it..and had to load it with stable release, then log into beta
[11:14 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: then that changes to a few odd errors, now and then
[11:14 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Is that why I was constantly crashing
[11:15 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: mantis 9137 is possible one
[11:16 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: i was with Aaack ( the reporter)  side by side at ubittest2  with last fs beta and release.. and it always worked fine for me, and always failed for him
[11:16 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: any diffrence in HW or operating system between the two of you?
[11:17 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: this may be a nasty problem on FS multitasking
[11:17 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: think both win..
[11:17 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: k
[11:17 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but Beq also things there may be a issue on multitask
[11:17 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: thinks..
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: possibler a old one, made worse with recent changes
[11:18 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: do you mean the FS multitasking code, or running multiple versions of FS?
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: race condition..  bad locking.. whatever
[11:18 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Fix one thing, find a bug somewhere else... seems familiar
[11:18 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: on same version
[11:19 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: New pots for old! New bugs for old!
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: on cache handling and http fetch of things
[11:19 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: sorry I meant multiple instances of same FS version on same machine
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: no.. problem is per instanve
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: instance..
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: fear you may have it also
[11:19 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: on dayturn..
[11:20 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what makes you fear that? :-)
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: depending on how close you use ll code on that
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: it is most likely a ll made issue :)
[11:20 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hidden by things like move to AIS
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: for example fecth the entire inventory tree on AIS is one single call
[11:21 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I don't have any AIS code at all in my current builds
[11:21 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: on older it is several fetchs
[11:22 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and we do see that with clean cache fs does not fecth the entire inventory
[11:22 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that may also be a manifestation of the issue
[11:23 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have seen similar behavior on SL on and off
[11:23 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but im just sharing the little im guessing abotu the problem and there there a problem
[11:23 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: there is..
[11:23 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ofc a hard one to debug due to its randomness
[11:23 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and very spargetty like code
[11:24 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yup
[11:24 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: a diference i notice is that some actions that where done inline on caller code, where moved to callbacks
[11:24 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that may open multi thread issues
[11:25 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: moved by FS or LL?
[11:25 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ll
[11:25 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have see there are some commitments to that extent popping up lately
[11:25 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: things got a lot worse with all the changes they made adding thimbnails
[11:26 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I think they are of the opinion that boost fibers don't do the job
[11:26 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: in fact they removed most the inventory code we need
[11:26 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: but yeah.. the issue may be that deep
[11:26 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Hi HumbleTim
[11:27 AM PT]  humbletim metaverse waves hello
[11:27 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Hello, humbletim
[11:27 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: My general opinion is they are pushing too many major changes too fast with inadequate testing
[11:27 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well those crashes are the worse we have now on viewers following ll code base
[11:27 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo: Welcome, Cuga
[11:27 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The thumbnails meanwhile are so damn annoying they cause a lag spike frame drops when they popup and often times hide the inventory you are trying to read. Having them on textures is nice, safes you a click I guess, but whatever happened to just naming things properly to know what they are. Such a heavy thing for so little gain
[11:28 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel and webrtc is the next big one to hit
[11:28 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Gavin, that is more true than ever now
[11:28 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: It's gotten worse and we were already used to that
[11:28 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: things a lot worse to TVPs forced to follow
[11:28 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: with very little time to sleep and similar "mundane humna " things
[11:29 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: webrtc is not as bad in the viewer as you might think. the backend is the real culprit
[11:29 AM PT]  orbert tatham: Didn't someone say that their  new management is former softies?
[11:29 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: former what ? :)
[11:29 AM PT]  orbert tatham: Microsoft sorts
[11:30 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Well to that actually. The backend development on webrtc is making small steps now. The primary issue is the lack of documentation of the custom messages so it's mostly poking around. The actual voice relay was surprisingly easy to setup
[11:30 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: It is the owner that is pushing them now
[11:30 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: getting impatient with stalling retention
[11:30 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well notice a new mantis with a issue on sqlite  grr
[11:30 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: just listen to the interview whith him published a month ago or so
[11:31 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Though I somewhat doubt we'll see webrtc this year, it's a headscratcher as much as it ever is
[11:31 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: "Using 0.9.3.0 Dev Master 15-June-2014." :)
[11:31 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: nice to see that im not the only one doing such typos :)
[11:32 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[11:32 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[11:33 AM PT]  Lyr Lobo grins
[11:34 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and a crash on a old line of code..
[11:34 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well fun fun..
[11:35 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Oh reminds me
[11:35 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I found a bug in search the other day
[11:36 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Parcel uuids can be the same across multiple regions so when it tries to parse them for search with a key on the uuids it fails
[11:36 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Obviously the region can't know about the uuids on other regions so the only solution for that is manually editing the uuid in the land table
[11:36 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: how is that possible?
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: parcel have 2 types of uuids
[11:37 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that must only be the case for grids with free region connection?
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: the visible one is actually a fake uuid
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that encodes information about the parcel
[11:37 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Closed grid actually, so yeah billion to one chance
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: so that a a lot less "uinique"
[11:37 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: unique
[11:38 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Was bound to happen the way I seem to attract such bugs like a 1MW lightbulb
[11:38 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but isnt the uuid portion generated like all uuids?
[11:38 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: not that public one
[11:38 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: why not?
[11:39 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: brb
[11:39 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: because ppl did not found another way to encode that data ?
[11:39 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The solution though is relatively easy. Changing the parser and the table structure of search to use both region and parcel uuid always
[11:39 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Nevermind that the current search tables are a bit of a mess to begin with
[11:39 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: isnt it some kind of string or xml where a uuid is porpended?
[11:40 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: pre*
[11:40 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Merging allparcels, parcels and places into one table and making a depended key on region parcel combo
[11:41 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: That's a bit of work though and this should ideally not happen all that often with how unique uuids tend to be
[11:41 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what table fields are the two uuids stored in?
[11:42 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think that collision happens on parcels or allparcels
[11:42 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I think both have the parcel uuid as primary key
[11:43 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ...
[11:43 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: public static UUID BuildFakeParcelID(ulong regionHandle, uint x, uint y)
 {
     byte[] bytes =
     {
         (byte)regionHandle, (byte)(regionHandle >> 8), (byte)(regionHandle >> 16), (byte)(regionHandle >> 24),
         (byte)(regionHandle >> 32), (byte)(regionHandle >> 40), (byte)(regionHandle >> 48), (byte)(regionHandle >> 56),
         (byte)x, (byte)(x >> 8), 0, 0,
         (byte)y, (byte)(y >> 8), 0, 0 };
     return new UUID(bytes, 0);
 }
[11:43 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ...
[11:43 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: don't ask why..  was similar to this when i "arrived"
[11:43 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:44 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what fields are they stored in?
[11:44 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: the public uuid of parcels
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: basicly the location
[11:45 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: They aren't stored in db
[11:45 AM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Generated from location on startup iirc
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: that is a twisted global position of the parcel
[11:45 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: oh, so they are dynamically generated
[11:45 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: parcels also have a normal UUID
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: the globalID on code
[11:46 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes stored in land.UUID
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: now... that X and Y may not be uniuqe on a region
[11:46 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: if you allow a parcel to be "inside"other
[11:47 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Aren't parcels defined by a bitmask?
[11:47 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: like you have a hollow land square you mean?
[11:47 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeap
[11:48 AM PT]  Kayaker Magic: Can two parcels have the same bit set? And share the land?
[11:48 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: you can't use bitmasks on lms
[11:49 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well opensim did cook up that fakeID
[11:49 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and it has fail cases
[11:49 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: .. still...
[11:50 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: bbiab
[11:51 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: humble ai told you did update the 3d viewer?
[11:52 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: humbletim imean :)
[11:53 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and joe how are things going on the oxidized steel front?
[11:53 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: hmm ioxidised iron
[11:54 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: rust is great :)
[11:54 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[11:54 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: especially on the Mac, where we get nearly native graphics
[11:55 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: they use metal?
[11:55 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Oh, hi.
[11:55 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: vulkan?
[11:55 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Joe would know
[11:55 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: vulkan is not "native" there
[11:55 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Plugging away. Currently working on priority ordering for mesh loads as the camera moves around.
[11:56 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: What would I know?
[11:56 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: What would I know?
[11:56 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is a m,etal lib
[11:56 AM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: metal
[11:56 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: actually you might not know
[11:56 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: question had to do with rust implementation on Mac
[11:57 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Ah. I use WGPU, which front-ends Vulkan, Metal, OpenGL, DX12, Android, and WebGPU.
[11:57 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: still potentially a lot faster than FS
[11:57 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Maybe, maybe not.
[11:57 AM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: FS is all intel code
[11:57 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Lots of problems because the lower level crates      were not optimized for performance.
[11:58 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: This is on the Rust side.
[11:58 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: Nobody ever built a really high frame rate FPS shooter with a big world in Rust, so the hard problems have not been hammered out yet.
[11:58 AM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: I'm back.
[11:58 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: So I spend too much time on problems others should have solved by now.
[11:59 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :(
[11:59 AM PT]  orbert tatham: At least someone will have solved them ... eventually
[11:59 AM PT]  Joe Magarac: One can hope. The other possibility is that everybody gives up on  Rust for games.
[11:59 AM PT]  Ubit Umarov: yeah was thinking that
[12:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: many just consider c   the gaming tool
[12:00 PM PT]  orbert tatham: When they can get the speed out of something and still solve the memory issues of C, etc. then they can
[12:00 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( some even want pure C )
[12:00 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Rust is so formalized and rigid that people working on games don't like it.
[12:00 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: You spend a lot of time getting the plumbing right.
[12:01 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Instead of adding game features.
[12:01 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: namely on tight memory control..
[12:01 PM PT]  orbert tatham: No null ponter erros means that I spend the time up front, not sownstream debugging
[12:01 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: garbage collectors and fast performance will never "match"
[12:01 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Rust is not garbage collected.
[12:01 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: IMO in the case of the SL viewer, writing a Rust version is as "unpossible" as rewriting it fully from scratch in Swift.
[12:02 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( i my mind jumped to c# eco system ;) )
[12:02 PM PT]  orbert tatham: That works from the Mac world
[12:02 PM PT]  orbert tatham: Not for the rest of us
[12:02 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Oh, it's possible. But a big job.
[12:02 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: agree
[12:02 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which is a Swift rewrite
[12:02 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: manyears
[12:02 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: I'm 3.5 years in.
[12:03 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not to be cynical, but be perared to add another 10
[12:03 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: prepared
[12:03 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: well ll is on viewers for a few more years and still far from right :P
[12:03 PM PT]  orbert tatham: Trying to matcvh LL will add a century
[12:03 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: The dream is you write once and export it to all the OS'es
[12:03 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not possible Cuga
[12:03 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is so 2014
[12:03 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: agree
[12:03 PM PT]  orbert tatham: Actually, it is easier in Rust than in most
[12:04 PM PT]  orbert tatham: That is whythe higher-level graphics interface
[12:04 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ( why 2014 again?...  we did travel back in time? )
[12:04 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: That actually works. Sharpview works on windows and Linux, and would probably work on MacOS if I wanted to jump through Apple's hoops.
[12:04 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we did Ubit ;-)
[12:04 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: We've tested a simpler program on MacOS.
[12:04 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: it compiled and ran great, fast, no problems
[12:05 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: that is the crux Joe. If you want to be on Apple platforms, you have to go with the flow
[12:05 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: there is virtually no way around it
[12:05 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I've been doing the dance for a while and it's not a big deal
[12:05 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: things like Rust is not even on their horizon
[12:06 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right.
[12:06 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: doesn;t matter,Rust's implementation works well
[12:06 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the only languages mentioned at WWDC2024 are Swift, Objective-C and C  
[12:06 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Windows making the users dance, Mac making the devs dance and linux is spewing CVE's like a fountain, what a great time to be alive
[12:06 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: I build the Windows version entirely on Linux. Test with Wine. It works.
[12:06 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Apple will never be interested
[12:07 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: They hate cross-compiling into their world. But it's apparently possible now.
[12:07 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: actually pretty common
[12:07 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: they don't hate it, they just don't support it and don't care if it breaks
[12:07 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: The Zig people made that work without Apple's dev tools.
[12:07 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Apple wouldn;t care if FS breaks
[12:07 PM PT]  humbletim metaverse: @ubit if you were asking earlier about updated Firestorm VR Mod w/PBR -- yes, have been testing with the FS preview branches
[12:08 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I remember over a decade ago I was writing a program in Delphi and it then got packaged and built as iphone app... so there are always ways lol
[12:08 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it will break the day OpenGL is removed from the system
[12:08 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Right.
[12:08 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you cannot compare the iPhone from back in the day to the iPhone today
[12:09 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can build one app that complies on Xcode to run on macOS, iOS and iPadOS
[12:09 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: covering 1.8 billion users
[12:09 PM PT]  orbert tatham: Go for it
[12:09 PM PT]  orbert tatham: Apple likes their closed shop
[12:09 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: 10  years project
[12:09 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: manyears
[12:09 PM PT]  orbert tatham: Some of us don't like the walled gardens
[12:10 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but never reach Win or Nix people
[12:10 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: wallclock 2 years minimum
[12:10 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not suitable for graphics-intensive app, but Apache Cordova exports to all the OS's
[12:10 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: apple doesn't get $ from win or nix ppl, so why care?
[12:10 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: its where you have heavy graphics things get tough
[12:11 PM PT]  orbert tatham: Why should the majority of users care about Apple?
[12:11 PM PT]  orbert tatham: It is rather mutual
[12:11 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: bc they to provide wll integrated solutions
[12:11 PM PT]  Joe Magarac: Gotta go, other meeting.
[12:11 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: they do..
[12:11 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: their user base has had a huge comeback
[12:11 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Joe. Thanks for being here.
[12:12 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: was in single digits for a while
[12:12 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: actually Apple care about Swift on unix
[12:12 PM PT]  orbert tatham: And as long as they exclude the rest of the world, I will ignore them
[12:12 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: in many cases did redefine how ppl see products
[12:12 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ipad iphone.. etc
[12:12 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: all wehre forced to "clone"
[12:13 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Mac power users are a rare bunch
[12:13 PM PT]  orbert tatham: If you don't want to conform to the Apple ecosystem, you don't belong there anyway
[12:13 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: and apple is more a thing than linux for example
[12:14 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: except maybe on servers, still
[12:14 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: At the end of the day for a commercial company like LL, it ios a commercial decision.
[12:14 PM PT]  orbert tatham: Linux runs on a lot more stuff than Apple
[12:14 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: They focus a lot on MS technologies, meaning they can reach Xbox and Windows users, but Microsft is a zero in mobile
[12:15 PM PT]  orbert tatham: Ok, guys, I need to go - this is beating dead horses
[12:15 PM PT]  orbert tatham: Have a good week
[12:15 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:15 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: have fun
[12:15 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: me too, need to head out :)
[12:15 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so if you want to reach a mobile audience, there is basically no way in not supporting iOS
[12:15 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: any issue related to opensim ?
[12:16 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: well, sort of related to Mac, as you can write once for mac, iOS, and iPadOS
[12:16 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yup
[12:16 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: See you next time Cuga.
[12:16 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: and Joe could potentially do that with Rust
[12:16 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: except he will always be one step behind
[12:16 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but extra work might not be worth his time, agree
[12:16 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: wel rl calls..
[12:16 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: always relying on 3rd parties
[12:16 PM PT]  Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: kk gotta go.. tty all later
[12:16 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: any other issue abotu opensim bf we close?
[12:17 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not today thanks
[12:17 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ahh checked pgsql gavin?
[12:18 PM PT]  Motoko.Karu @login.digiworldz.com:8002: laters everyone
[12:18 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have not had the time yet Ubit. The garden is killing me, so I am wrestling back control
[12:18 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: will get there
[12:18 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ohh can so my garden after
[12:18 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: can do..
[12:18 PM PT]  Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: lol
[12:18 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: :-)
[12:18 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:19 PM PT]  Ubit Umarov: ok cya later, here or there :)
[12:19 PM PT]  Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: have a great week all
[12:19 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Gavin. See you next week.
[12:20 PM PT]  Andrew Hellershanks: Time to close the meeting for this week. Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
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